Waterford GAA Thread - Mod note post #1

The Western Intermediate Hurling championship started this weekend

Anyone knw the format

Balls, Cahill will definitely go to him and you can't blame him.

At the end of the day he is a Tipp man and its his own county he has dreamed of managing

I suppose we knew from day one that this was a likely scenario to play out. Still bitterly disappointing if Cahill is gone after 2 years and the progress we made under him and bevans. fingers crossed he stays but there seems an inevitability to this now

Wouldn’t be in the mans make-up to hold a grudge, the only thing he might feel is a a loyalty to these players and the county that gave him his chance at intercounty management but Cahill is Tipperary through and through and if the come calling he will go, no doubt about it. They’d be crazy to overlook him you’d have to say, as the other poster said, this is inevitable.

Back to aimless long balls to one forward constantly no fluidity. Picking players not for the skill but because their “Friends “ look at the amount of young players that have come up since since he left. And we all know how his last season went. This standard of hurling is a million times higher under Liam Cahill.

I think the fact that Sheedy has announced his resignation so quickly, is a statement of intent from Tipp that they intend to move quickly, and Cahill must definitely be the number 1 or 2 contender for the job. Waiting around for a year or two to see how things pan out could mean missing out on the job he wanted from day one, so if he goes then the best of good luck to him.

From a Waterford perspective, he would undoubtedly be a huge loss . but if we as a team and a county can learn there is hope. Previous managements had at times undermined the quality of what was available to them, whereas Cahilll got them to believe in themselves, - yes his system of play was important, but it was more about the quality that each individual brought to the system and how they were encouraged to express themselves brought the best out of them. There was no excuses about lack of talent or anything else, and whoever comes in must build on this approach, They must show belief and in return demand the full commitment of the players, our county board and supporters, as success has a cost.

When Cahill came in Waterford had dropped well down the "food-chain" , considered at the bottom of "the also rans", with much the same panel of players if not a better panel - Today just two very short years later we are considered by most observers as being firmly in the top three - thank you Liam Cahill - whatever you decide

I dont think it's cut and dried that Cahill take's the Tipp job. Lets be honest Brendan Maher was only the start of their departures. Padraic Maher, Bonner Maher, Seamus Callanan and Noel McGrath 30+, John McGrath, Barrett, Forde, Breen, Mccormack etc are 27+ so it's no easy rebuild in Tipp. The Tipp public won't accept a 2-4 year building of a team for Cahill to bring through the underage teams he built. Look at Declan Ryan, Eamonn O'Shea and Michael Ryan, did any of them get beyond 3 years in charge. Tipp are a very fickle county and Cahill himself should be well aware of that.

He's started his project in waterford - 2 season's all ireland final and semi final losing out to the eventual winner both times (assuming Limerick beat Cork). If he walks away does he leave it to someone else to deliver on his hard work. This team will be in it's prime from 2022 to 2024 before the minor team of 2013 will probably start declining. Why would you throw that away. Imagine him walking into a Tipp dressing room in 24/25 with an all ireland in his arse pocket, Tipp players will follow without question.

Now he still has a lot to improve with this Waterford team but they can do it. Backs still need improving, especially in the two corners, (unfortunately we'll never win an all ireland with Kenny and McNulty as starting CB's) and a midfield partner for Barron. I'd say they're 4 players away from an all ireland winning team. A corner back, a wing back, midfielder (or K Bennett) and a CHF. If Socky came back that would be a huge boost to the panel as Nolan and O'Brien just aren't at the same level as him. And he needs to get away from the idea of Calum picking up players, it won't work, Calum is too valuable going the other way.

Socky

C Gleeson - C Prunty - New CB

C Lyons - TDB - I Daly

J Barron - K Bennett/ (New MF)

J Fagan - New CHF - St Bennett

D Hutchinson - Aussie - Sh Bennett

That still leaves you with options in Hogan, Kiely, Monty, Jack P, Daragh Lyons, Curran, Billy Power

Cahill got Waterford to the All Ireland final in 2020 despite us not winning a championship game in the previous 2 years.

If Cahill took over I wouldn't be surprised to see Tipp contending for next years All Ireland. Its not like they don't have good players coming through, they have won minor and U20/21 all irelands

Liam Cahill had Waterford playing great stuff all along this and last season but the tactics this year vs Limerick were very Derekesque.. Only two forwards up near the goal.

Depressing to watch. (and we were outclassed)

Limerick 1-25 Waterford 0-17

In attempting to analyse Waterford’s defeat to Limerick in the All-Ireland semi-final, three questions present themselves. How good were Limerick? How bad were Waterford? And to what extent were the answers to these questions interlinked?

It is obvious that Limerick are an exceptional team who played very well on the day. Much of the media coverage of the game focused on their physicality and athleticism. However, Limerick are also very skillful and well-coached. They have a very effective and well-practised game plan which they also execute to great effect. Much of this game plan is clearly modelled on that employed by the Dublin footballers in recent years – flurries of short passes to get out of tight situations and put players in the clear, great physicality and athleticism, strength in the tackle, and a remarkable ability to gang-tackle players in possession.

For their part, Waterford played well below the level of which they are capable, and well below their level of performance against Galway and Tipperary. Their game was strewn with errors – 51 in total, by my count. These included 15 fumbles, eight possessions lost in contact and 20 cases where the ball was given away. Half of Limerick’s total score (1-11) originated directly from Waterford errors.

Obviously some of these errors can be attributed to the pressure brought to bear by Limerick’s intensity. There has also been much speculation about the effects of Waterford playing four games on successive weekends. While this can never be proven, there were some signs of mental fatigue among Waterford players. For example, early in the second half Shane Bennett hit a mindless ball downfield straight to the unmarked Dan Morrissey and a minute later Austin Gleeson did the same thing despite having two unmarked team mates right in front of him.

There has also been mention of the psychologically draining effect of Waterford’s failure to exploit numerous chances in the first quarter, when they hit six wides (three from frees) to just three for Limerick. The facility with which Limerick secured many of their scores thereafter must have added to that draining effect. Another possible factor was the way Waterford appeared to by hyped-up for the game, as reflected in the way they got stuck into Limerick right from the start. Apart from the fact that this was bound to take its physical toll, it can also create a sense of frantic anxiety which impacts negatively on both thought and execution.

This brings into question the overall Waterford mindset as they took to the field. Liam Cahill appears to have devised a tactical approach designed to counteract Limerick, which in turn required Waterford to abandon the positive, attacking, approach which had brought victory against Galway and Limerick. Part of this approach was to take Limerick on physically, which was doomed to failure. Instead, they should have focused on devising tactics to avoid Limerick’s physicality (on which more later).

More important, and fatal for Waterford, was their negative defensive setup. As in the game against Clare, Calum Lyons (one of our key offensive assets) was assigned a marking role, this time on Gearóid Hegarty. It was ironic that the player he would normally have been marking, Tom Morrissey, was the one who inflicted most damage on the day. The attack-minded Patrick Curran was replaced by Conor Gleeson, who was assigned a marking job on Cian Lynch. And behind him, Shane Bennett was employed as a sweeper. With Jack Prendergast operating as a third midfielder, this meant that Waterford had just four forwards marked by six Limerick defenders. How were we ever going to win the game in these circumstances?

It is instructive that in last Saturday’s football semi-final, Mayo were very tentative and defence-minded in the first half and were being beaten out the gate by Dublin. When they went for broke with an all-out attacking game in the second half, they managed to create history. To their credit, Waterford did adopt a more attack-minded approach in the second half, and if they had managed to convert just one of nine goal chances created (including the trio of blocked shots in quick succession in the 69th minute), they could have made more of a game of it.

Limerick, by contrast, created just two clear goal chances during the game and converted one of them. The latter raises the question as to why sweeper Shane Bennett was assigned (or allowed) to take sidelines in the second half. He made two crucial errors with his third sideline. Firstly, he struck it poorly and, secondly, he struck it infield to Peter Casey who transferred immediately to Hegarty who charged unchallenged down the middle (where Bennett should have been) before transferring to Gillane for the killer finish.

While Liam Cahill has done a tremendous job in making Waterford the second best hurling team in Ireland, he has, in my view, fallen down in two key tactical areas. The first is his failure to work on puckout strategy. This was a disaster area last week, especially in the first half when the game was won and lost. Waterford won just one of their nine long puckouts in this period. Several of these puckouts were landed down on a triple-marked Waterford player who had no team mate in the vicinity, with the inevitable results. Four of Waterford’s directed puckouts (aimed at players in the midfield area) were either cut out or fumbled by the recipient.

Waterford virtually abandoned long puckouts in the second half (just three of 18 puckouts in total). They got some return from their short/directed puckouts but always seemed to be playing off the cuff, compared with Limerick’s well-rehearsed moves from their short puckouts. With Waterford playing only four players up, Nicky Quaid had plenty of options, with most of his puckouts going to half backs and midfielders. Several passes later and they usually had a player in the clear to either shoot or place the ball to the inside line. Waterford might have been better off playing six forwards up in order to close down these short puckouts which are central to the Limerick game plan.

My other tactical issue with Liam Cahill is his focus on playing in straight lines down the pitch, with little variation in terms of lateral movement. This has worked against other teams due to Waterford’s skill and speed of movement. However, it has not worked against Limerick, as repeatedly stick passes coming in at head height failed to stick under strong physical pressure from markers. In many cases, the players delivering the pass had alternative options in the form of unmarked team mates to left or right but failed to consider them.

Limerick, by contrast, are quite content to pass the ball in any direction to unmarked team mates in order to keep possession until the opportunity presents itself to deliver a killer ball. In last week’s game they engaged in 21 passing movements involving three or more successive passes compared with just five for Waterford.

This helps to explain Limerick’s much higher level of possessions in the game – 211 to Waterford’s 144. The highest number of possessions any Waterford player had was 13 (Shane McNulty – many of whose possessions were from short puckouts – and Conor Gleeson, who had a fine game). No fewer than eight Limerick players topped that number, led by Tom Morrissey (24) followed by Darragh O’Donovan (23), who had probably his finest game in a Limerick shirt.

The Waterford starting half-forward line of Fagan, Prendergast and Bennett got 12 possessions between them. The corresponding total for the Limerick half-back line was 51. Austin Gleeson did not get his first possession until the 20th minute. Stephen Bennett got the ball in his hand just twice in the second half. Both Darragh Lyons and Neil Prendergast made substantial improvements when introduced.

It would be a pity should Liam Cahill and Mikey Bevans be lost to us at this stage. They have got tremendous buy-in from a very good group of hurlers which I expect to be further strengthened over the coming years. On their frequent good days, Waterford have lit up the hurling world with their drive, speed and skill. Cahill has stated that he is still learning his trade as a county senior hurling manager. In my view he has more promising material at his disposal in Waterford than he would have in Tipperary. He has been unfortunate in coming up against a truly exceptional team in Limerick. Should he stay, and learn from his adverse experiences against the Shannonsiders. I am confident that even better days are ahead for Waterford.

Waterford play counts: Shaun O’Brien (5); Ian Kenny (4), Conor Prunty (7), Shane McNulty (13); Calum Lyons (10), Shane Bennett (11), Kieran Bennett (10); Conor Gleeson (13), Jamie Barron (10), Peter Hogan (9); Jack Fagan (2), Jack Prendergast (3), Stephen Bennett (7); Dessie Hutchinson (10), Austin Gleeson (9); Michael Kiely (3), Darragh Lyons (7), Neil Montgomery (6), Patrick Curran (2), Shane Fives (3).

Your analysis is spot on.

In hindsight, playing 4 weeks on the trot was a huge disadvantage. Cork managed 3 weeks in a row but had a rather softish match against Dublin en route ; imagine if Cork had to play another match a week after beating Kilkenny.

Agree 100% with Giveitfong - mistakes were undoubtedly made at management level and not for the first time but I would expect Cahill would learn for those mistakes if staying on - in terms of Senior inter county management he is still a novice. This is why i believe if he is offered the Tipp job he will take it as his stock might not be so high next time around.

In case anyone thinks i was DMG bashing in my previous post, I was not, i was merely stating a fact. He believed he has doing the right thing, and was trying to win an All Ireland as much as Liam Cahill was, but the facts are he did repeatedly state (as did many of the pundits) that we just did not have the forwards to compete. Most people who follow hurling in Waterford disagreed with this "opinion", and while the past is the past, Liam Cahill showed belief and faith in our ability to attack teams, it was unfortunate that they floundered come the semi final, but I think he may genuinely have been worried about fatigue instead of really going for it.

We did fumble a huge amount of ball, sometimes because of the pressure being applied by Limerick, and some times because of the pressure we were applying to ourselves. I felt we were jittery and too pumped up, but that is what happens when you are chasing a first title for so long, the pressure can get to you, ask any Mayo supporter.

If Liam Cahill, or whoever our next appointment is, can continue the project started over the last two years I see real hope for the coming 3/4 years - as long as we learn and improve and not regress into negativity - I believe that the likes of Michael Kiely, Cathlarch Daly, Gavin Fives, and others will add to the panel greatly. I believe the additional experience gained by Montgomery, Iarlaith Daly, Jack Fagan and Darragh Lyons will benefit them greatly next year, and with Patrick Curran returning to form alongside a returning Tadgh De Burca and possibly Pauric Mahony could bring this team to a whole new level next year - as long the returning or new or returning management continues to play to our strengths.

Looking forward now to the local championship to see who if anyone really put s their hand up for selection going forward

Dessie Hutchinson throughout the season has been isolated in the full forward line with no more than one team mate so this was not a new tactic from Waterford devised for the semi final alone.

Lyons performance on hurler of the year surely would be an endorsement of that decision? He still scored two points , how many are we expecting him to score?

I honestly can't believe people calling Shane Bennett's role as a sweeper, the Sunday game analysis was awful. Cian Lynch spent most of his time inside his own half, what are we expecting here? That Shane Bennett man marks him and leaves even more space for Flanagan in particular to exploit?? Conor Gleeson played well, I think it was a reasonable call although maybe putting Gleeson on Flanagan and leaving Curran in would have worked better.

I would not blame management for Waterfords performance, and I think the players going at it hard early on was far from the root of the defeat. You can't pace yourself through a game, it's inter county hurling.

I do wonder if yielding the short puckouts to Limerick is wise, but they have such an a varied threat it makes it very difficult for any opposition to assess how to counteract it.

Assuming the inevitable happens and Cahill goes to Tipp, who would be genuine candidates for the job? It's probably a little disappointing that there doesn't seem to be any Waterford man out there managing a club side (or indeed not currently over any team at all) that have really done enough to put themselves in a suitable position for the role since Fanning left (although to be fair Covid hasn't helped I'd imagine). I may be wrong on that but just going by what I read here and general match reports, living abroad so wouldn't be hugely up to date with the club scene.

Suppose the question I'm asking is will it likely be another manager from outside the county as opposed to someone capable from inside the county. Might be handy to keep Stephen Frampton and Tom Feeney around given they could contribute towards keeping the good work and ideas put in by Cahill and Bevans but would depend on who the incoming guy wants as a backroom team.