Bedtime battles

"Also, with the getting out of bed, I followed the advice to ignore and just walk her back to bed each time but I still think she's getting the attention anyway so that didn't work either."

Out of curiosity do you do any talking at all when trying this approach? If so what do you say or not say generally?

Good yes. That is very difficult to do. Most parents trying that method find themselves responding. And the child will usually try every trick in the book to get some kind of response. Suddenly they need water. They need to know what time it is. They want to know what is happening the next day. Any question they can think of to get responses out of you. Actually using that method correctly - to simply walk them back to bed saying nothing - is harder than one would think. Especially when tired. And sometimes you respond without even realising you have. So a lot of the time that method fails - is because people are not doing it right.

When I have seen that method used - the first night or few nights are a war of attrition. I have seen it used in real life. Also multiple times on the Jo Frost TV show. And almost invariably the first night goes on for hours. The "trick" is to win on those first nights. So a lot of the times that method fails is also down to the parent simply giving in too soon. The first night can go on till midnight. But usually the second night not even close to that. And after 3 or 4 nights the method finally sees success and the child learns this behaviour is not going to control the situation any more.

Of course other times it fails because it simply will not work on that child. Beware people who tell you a given method will definitely work and if it is not working it is because you must be doing it wrong. Some methods simply do not fit some children. Without actually being there and observing myself I can not tell you which it is.

Are you a single parent doing this alone by the way? I am not hearing any mention of a partner covering one or either child in your post above. You also say it going on until after 9. But you do not say what eventually does work - how does it usually end and play out when she finally does sleep?

As for other advice to give you and suggestions. Well I am not sure without observing myself again. And I am not sure if I would suggest things you have tried already but I would throw two things out from my own experiences:

1) As parents we naturally think the older child should go to bed at the same time or later. It just seems right. So that is how most of us aim to do it. So I would wonder if you have considered not doing that? Some parents simply would not even have that option occur to them. If the older child is so easy to put down however you could try and take some of the pressure off yourself by putting that child down first. Leave the other one doing something else as an activity or even sitting in the bath.

2) Have you tried simply staying with her while she falls asleep? I know some people argue this is a bad thing to do but I have not once heard a coherent reason or argument why. In fact I had to do this with my own son when he was 4 and 5 but when he turned 6 he was in a better place to be read to and left. And now he goes down a dream. You would - like the way of attrition above - have to be draconian in your silence and not responding and so on. Read your own book or whatever gets your through in that time. But if the child needs you to be there to fall asleep then why not? Of course you do not want that situation forever - but doing it during the less rational year or years of a child's younger life causes no harm I can see.