Kilkenny GAA Thread

Thanks it actually looks to be updated now for first round with dates, venues and times and the times for last round. Middle round must not be finalised yet.

It was indeed.

Where does it put players who we all had high hopes for a year or two ago like Ciaran Brennan, Conor Kelly and Cian Kenny, all of whom made no impression against Galway?

But it also shows the minor championship is now of little value, and Galway too will be as equally concerned tonight that like us, they are doing something badly wrong at the 18-20 age group

That Galway team were 12 pounts better than any Munster team 3 years ago yet got walloped tonight.

Most of that Cork team tonight got hammered in Munster at Minor by both Limerick and Tipp. Limerick in turn were trounced by both Galway and us.

Galway couldnt physically dominate Cork the way they did to Kilkenny, and then they compounded matters by woeful shooting and terrible options.

Limerick only lost by just 2 points to that Cork team a few weeks ago, so clearly both counties have done miles better work with their respective teams to us (and it appeaers Galway and Tipp too) in the intrevening years since minor.

This (as many on this topic have correctly identified) is where senior hurlers are being forged.

Left field comment here but I would really like to see the hand pass ( or throw as is now prevalent) banned from hurling. It is in my view the only ‘skill’ in hurling that is not a skill, in that anyone could master it. It favours the less skilful type of player and can give a big advantage to the bigger more athletic but less skilful hurler. Would definitely like to see it banned from underage in Kilkenny.

Just on these names you are throwing out, when they were first mentioned on here. I said that these boys were not all they were cracked up to be. But I was rann off the site. I had extensive exposure to these ages up through the years and to me they were never the best players around and were only in there becauuse of who they were. They have no real hunger or will they ever have as it was all to easy when they started out. It will be the same with this years minors.

Club is where all of this begins

School (primary) is where it continues

Out of Go Games age is where it ramps up (club, post primary and squads)

All of the above underpinned at home.

Can we say that the above is happening, consistently?

The rethink or new approach we need, imo, is not revolutionary but rather back to clubs.

Clubs of course differ in playing numbers, resources, availability of coaches and not one size approach will suit all.

But without serious work at coaching level at club level, we are expecting too much of squads and above.

It might sound harsh or mechanical but there needs to be basic skill levels markers or milestones for coaching young players.

Any club that recommends at chap at u14 for regional squads who is not yet hurling off both sides or is lacking in core skills and movement should be told and supported to reach a standard and if the club are willing but lack resources then the County Coaching resources should be aimed at them.

Squads should not be a target rather they should be another step towards player development if they are capable of hurling at that level. And that level should be higher than any current club level (Roinn A).

Kilkenny have 3 u14 squads, at least 2 u15 and definitely 2 at u16. at u14 lets say that is 90 chaps hurling in a ''county set up'' or pre set up. There was a time when I thought fair enough. Not anymore. Squads should be very hard to get into and very easy to exit. Could be wrong but would there be more development in a smaller number were the standards are clear and measurable and consistent? In essence what are development squads for? So that the every club has an opportunity for their best players to train and play with every other clubs's best players? Or are they about ''one for everyone in the audience'' so that all clubs can nominate 3/4 chaps every year and regardless of the coaching at squad level, a chap is not yet ready or may never be ready. Late bloomers will always or should always be picked up.

There is an honesty required from all of us coaching in our clubs. If my club has 3 or 4 players hurling mid level in Roinn B and they are in squads at 14/15 then either the squad standard is low or my clubs expectations are too high and unrealistic. And its not players fault either. It is for the club to develop these chaps, squads or anything else will not have the time or resources to do so. The current u14s in 3 squads should be amalgamated into 2 and like other squads, players should continue to meet measurable targets and , in club games, be leaders in their age group. If not then we are just compounding the issues into a structure that was not set up for it.

If at u16 Kilkenny can have 2 squads at u16, equally competitive and carry up to 50 players then the future is indeed bright but I remain unconvinced if silently hopeful.

We need to fundamentally place squads in different debate, allied to and fed from clubs but ruthless and fair and consistent. If we end up not playing Underage tournaments (if they return) so be it. It should not be beyond our capacity as a county to figure out others ways of exposing our best to the best of other counties. And if that means bringing a panel of 24 or 26 chaps to play 3x25 minute games against the best of other counties so be it. There will be more learning in that than worrying about all chaps getting game time. They are no longer playing Go Games.

Our clubs should be the beginning, middle and end of a players hurling . The small number capable, demonstrably capable and consistent in their application, should have the opportunity to play with a cohort of the chaps: we can call them squads or academies or whatever but while they are important, they are not and should never be the endgame. The small few again will make intercounty.

But back to basics we must go: clubs, schools and hurling at home. And the support we need in our clubs, if we feel we need it, should come from County resources. For some that might mean paying coaches, for others it might be a targeted coaching workshop(s) and for schools it might mean parents acting as club ambassadors and encouraging schools to deliver or facilitate more schools based hurling.

The gap that has opened up these past few years is not beyond us to close. But without clubs doing the grunt work, it will take time and others will exploit this too.

It's a pity that the debate that's happening on here is not happening at the upper levels of the county board. Development squads obviously need some revamp but also what happens the 17s who don't make the 20s immediately. Are they left in the wilderness until maybe they make the 20s in the last year. Also I know of parents of lads who were on minor teams the last few years and their opinion was that there was little or no development of their sons game. Strengths and weaknesses weren't worked on. Things like positional sense and puck out strategy received very little attention. Recently I watched a training session for the county U 17 squad which was held in my local club. I think it was this year's squad without the ones who were still playing with last year's team. All I can say was the training was very basic and the standard left a lot to be desired. Anyway I think we are in danger of being left behind due to our failure to keep up with best practice and we need to wake up soon or the famine will be a long one.

There's a lot to this post but one thing I disagree on is using schools in the way you suggest with parents putting pressure on teachers to facilitate more hurling. Schools and primary schools in particular should be encouraging children to exercise and play as many sports as possible not narrow their focus to one sport in particular which is more likely to drive kids away from sport because they'll be under more pressure. I'm not a fan of using schools in any player development role bar encouraging children and teenagers to keep playing sports. Player development should be done via the development squads and clubs unless there's some form of sport scholarship programme involved with a school.

Again, I will try clarify.

Of course general movement and exercise is the first priority.

I just believe that hurling is a game that incorporates all Fundamental Movement Skills and if it is possible then my preference would be hurling fundamentals and skills.

It doesn't have to be competitive. It can be fun. There shouldn't be any pressure.

National and primary schools have served clubs and county well in the oat and presently in some areas. I think we can do more in this area without it being being a negative or pressured environment.

Some terrific discusion here.

I do feel however that we may be overlooking one huge issue. The impact of Covid.

Cork and Limerick we all agree are ahead of the pack at present in terms of resources, professionalism, structures, devolopment. I feel however that the 2 years of Covid may have exageratted their lead. Their training programmes would be more advanced and digitally driven than most of pack these last two seasons. Given the huge restrictions incurred on training, one would have expected fitness levels and even overall standards (touch etc) everywhere to have dropped, however Limerick are physically well ahead of where they were 2 years ago, Conversely, Galway and Tipp in particular looked flat. We are about the same.

Club hurling inside the county and the AI championships in 3 grades is very important to Kilkenny. A winning menataility beating the best clubs from Cork and Tipp and Galway etc does no harm whatsoever.

Also, the schools competitions are probbaly more important to Kilkenny than most other counties as we will invariably (similar to AI club) have teams at business end.

No Fitzgibbon has also hurt us. This competion has been massive for the likes of Limerick and Cork development in last 5-6 years, steeling good players as the physicality and conditions are tough, and refs let a lot go. Kilkenny for first time ever in recent years, had big numbers playing on the best sqauds (DCU, UL, UCC, UCD, Carlow and Waterford). We had a string of top class Fitzgibbon players (Mullens, Donnely, Delaney, Bergin, Leahy, Huw Lawlor, Conor Browne, Carey) last few years but all will now be finished (or at best final year in 2022). Mikey Carey was centre back for UL when he wasnt even on Kilkenny panel.

Finally, I feel giving up on lads aged 17-20 years on basis of 1-2 poor outings is way premature. I felt especially bad for young Shine last week, his task was hopeless and he resorted to trying to do it all on his own, but the Galway backs were just too good and too strong and had him ear marked.

A reminder that the last two YHOYs who we now accept are top class senior inter county palyers had a few awful days out at minor and u20.

I feel our 2018-2020 minors despite losing all three finals, will still produce some smashing seniors and I'd say some of them (especially those who had awful games v Galway this year) cannot wait for the club action to start to show they are better hurlers than that.

The above is not a plea to relax, "everything will be grand when we return to normal conditions in 2022" but merely a pause for consideration.

I think the real worry area for me is the 18-20 year old, the displays in last 3-4 years in this area have ranged from medicore to downright abject. But again the youngest of this group have had no schools (esssentially u19) last two years and the oldest (19-20 year olds) have had no Fitzgibbon to bolster. Instead, they are meeting super fit well drilled minor and U20 squads like Galway and Limerick and Cork and coming up well short. But this of course only points the finger firmly at the Kilkenny set up for this age group (ie Galway have had no schools or colleges either but still turned out strong teams that seriously performed).

I like the second suggestion here with the development squads especially with non-club coaches sending the players onto the development squads.

But I'm not sure if the blitz league ideas would work. You could end up with a lot of walkovers if clubs start picking up injuries and the efforts it would require on coaches, players and parents could end up burning them out quickly. You'd also have competition for players from other sports that could get messy fairly quickly especially if I'm reading this correctly that you'd have the blitz leagues as well as the normal championship instead of the blitz championship replacing the normal championship.

Personally one thing I'd like to see if it's not already been done is coaching courses been mandatory for club coaches and at least twice a year courses been delivered for a club delivered at the clubs ground so that all the coaches at a club can attend and learn if possible.

Covid has a had an impact on all counties but as you say maybe other counties were ahead anyway but Galway seem to have managed it in some ways. Cork winning u20 with a panel that was locked down by Covid shows I think how much work had gone into them.

Article in Examiner this morning talking about talent ID through work done by GDA's and squad coaches.

Their regional squads are backboned by huge numbers at u14 across the county and including less traditional hurling feeder clubs (Kilkenny has about 40 clubs and a population of approx 100,000? Cork city alone and the areas around it (Middleton inwards) must have a population of around 200,000? Thats a serious number of young lads to have hurling out of a section of that overall cohort.

I do get a bit miffed when I read about the professionalism of other counties as generally my experience is that we are well served in that area. However we are lacking a culture of discussion and debate in recent years and there are a variety of reasons for that and that is impacting on the need for us to make changes and to get a maximum return from clubs sand county.

Covid or versions of it will be around for the foreseeable future so planning and development has to take that into account.

No doubt that chaps hold more potential than what this years minors/ u20s showed. The young Dicksboro chap was very strong v Offaly and less so against Wexford and Galway but he has time to build on what he has shown.

Anyway, great to read different views and opinions and views. Ideally they'll filter up and down and around the county.

Reading through the posts here it's clear that posters are genuinely interested in and fairly knowledgeable about the current underage system in Kilkenny. Thinking about it I wonder if the current structure of development squads could still be used as a basis for the future. I think maybe the problem lies in what's being coached. Things I see that are lacking are decision making, puckout strategy, speed/S&C and tackling. Basic skills are even lacking from some players. If a proper coaching strategy is put in place the current structures could still be used. Also talent identification needs to be improved and membership of the squads needs to be reviewed very regularly. Feel free to disagree as I would love to read other people's opinions. The main question to ask is are development squads actually developing players?

A lot of ideas here most around getting game time. If you look at the rural clubs most of the better under age players are playing twice a week as it is. When they get to minor they end up with only a game a week as the under 19 games don't start until after all the other games are finished. Also many of the up to age minors won't get a senior game the following yr as they are normally a little small for the adult game. There is space for a competition at this age group that can run for the full year 36 clubs in 2 groups would give 17 games and harden or help mature these lads. Most of them are just gunning for games as they were locked up for the last 2 years. Also they won't be a drain on the mammy or daddy as most would have a car and could car pool to the games

County board clean sweep is needed , to many lads swapping jobs every few years with a long time now and results at underage are proof of that cosy cartel .....one coaching officer for every 4/5 clubs ....it will take money but if we don't invest in complete overhaul of development from nursery up we'll just fade away ......as for Cork I said it few years ago once the got there house in order with right people and structures and financial backing they could become a runaway train

Absolutely .Red tinted glasses .current cork panel had very limited underage success.

Galway dominant in minor with 5 years.

First crop should be early twenties now.no major impact on senior panel. Compared to kerry football panel who also won 4 in a similar period.