Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

We have twice the EU average case rate, which is growing, and a health service without spare capacity.

It isn't rocket science, relax restrictions when the trend is down, not when it is going up.

Maybe it shows that our method of no antigen tests and vaccine passes does not work?

If antigen tests were used as the requirement for indoor hospitality and gigs etc - it would catch far more cases and break chains of transmission, limiting spread of the virus. Instead we have a free for all if you're vaccinated, despite vaccinated people still spreading the virus. No wonder our numbers are so high.

And to cap it all off we have people such as yourself defending the most pathetic pandemic response going - 90% of adults have at least 1 dose, and yet we are still more restrictive and have higher cases than most EU countries.

I am not defending the lack of antigen tests at all. I think they should be introduced where appropriate. The vaccine passes are a sensible measure and many European countries introduced them after we did, the only question is why they are not used for entry to sports events and why places like universities will not use them when pubs do. Vaccinated people can spread the virus if they get it, but it is clear that they are much less likely to get it and the hospitalisation rate is much higher for unvaccinated people.

@Klonker wrote:

That's dependent really on the prevalence of the infection in a given society. In a country with low prevalence, then deferring the under-18s might be a good idea. Where viral spread is high, it is better to get wider coverage and thus vaccinating the 12-18 age group may be prudent.

The more people are infected, the more breakthrough infections there are, the more vulnerable people will catch it and require hospitalisation. With a disease that is this infectious therefore, you need vaccination to drive down the number of infections in the general population. Vaccination is not just about protecting the individual, it's about protecting all society by limiting the spread of the infection.

Even if the risk to under-18s was practically zero, there is a strong argument for vaccinating them to reduce viral spread.

This is not a new thing; we vaccinate against many diseases which pose little risk to children, but have higher risks to vulnerable adults (and children). Rubella is the perfect example. Rubella poses practically no risk to healthy children and adults. It does however pose a risk to some children with a rare immune disorder, and to pregnant women.

So we vaccinate all children against a very mild disease in order to protect others, not to protect the children.

There is no doubt that providing the covid vaccine to the 12+ age group is essential for us now to stay on top of this. It is clearly demonstrated in the case numbers that this age group are contracting it in high volumes, and therefore vaccinating them is necessary for the protection of vulnerable people.

The evidence is less compelling for the under-12 group. Not only is the risk of the virus considerably less for them, but in Ireland they contract the virus at least 50% less than the next oldest age group. This lines up with the international data. This means the law of diminishing returns applies. It might be discussed at some future date, but for now driving vaccination as deep into the 12+ group as possible is what will yield the best outcome.

And what about the thhe elderly in other countries who can't get access to vaccines. Do you not think it's morally wrong for Western countries to vaccine under 18s with no underlying issues when there's other countries crying out for vaccines? There's an infinite supply of vaccines, the 'we'll do both' in terms of vaccinating under 18s/boosters and donating simultaneously response from Western governments doesn't wash.

Those vaccines youre comparing the covid vaccine to for child vaccination like rubella are life long vaccines. For covid our current guess is yearly or at best every 2 year vaccinations, not really comparable.

The intent is the same; protection of society. We vaccinate children specifically against rubella not because it provides lifelong protection, but because they are the age group most likely to come into contact with pregnant women.

The moral argument has been around for a while, but to be honest it hasn't stacked up that much. It makes sense to concentrate the use of vaccines in the countries worst affected, not the ones most exposed. It just so happens that wealthy countries have in the main been the worst affected, and poorer countries less affected, with a few notable exception.

Our current level of infection is amongst the worst on the planet, therefore I see no moral issue with us using the vaccine to try and keep on top of it.

Coupled with the amount of money we are putting into COVAX, I am pretty happy that ethically we have our bases covered. When a fire is raging, but you've got it contained, you don't turn off the hoses and send your firefighters off to another blaze.

As long as we give a little money to Covax we can hoover up all the vaccines we want and have guilt free consciences. Straight out of the Western leaders handbook. Why are WHO continously asking countries not to vaccinate under 18s and not to give boosters? Do you honestly believe the covid situation is worse in Ireland than in parts of Africa and Asia who are struggling for vaccines just because we are reporting more cases? Pull the other one.

Long time lurker here and have followed this thread for a long time.

I could never understand this at all! Isn`t something better than nothing? Everybody (both sides of the debate) is burnt from all of this at this stage. I lost faith in NPHET after last October (Holohans return). The complete reticence to use Antigen testing in some format sealed it with me! There seems to be only a singular strategy of lockdowns, negativity and fear propagated by MSM with some MSM only questioning this now.

Anyhow the government should have have made the decisions here instead of hiding behind NPHET. I do not trust the HSE or NPHET as they spin better than a washing machine!

Frontline staff do not come into it as they are doing their jobs under difficult conditions (over many years outside Covid as well!). This is turning into NPHET/HSE having a golden opportunity of pressuring the government using restrictions on everything else in society to cover for their failings!

I wrote to politicians months ago about all this a total waste of time not that I was expecting anything different!

80-90% Population vaccinated how can Ireland be so fearful, negative and restricted with kites flying about restrictions again in 2022!

@Klonker wrote:

Because the WHO have a global focus. At the moment, they aren't actually recommending against giving it under-18s. Their overall recommendation is that under-18s are less urgent, and vaccination should focus on health care workers and at-risk cohorts rather than less risky ones. At an international level this means, "Consider whether it is necessary to give it to under-18s in your country" rather than "don't" - for the reasons I mention above.

The last comment I can find in relation to this was made by Dr Ryan at a charity event in February. A lot has changed since then.

The recommendation against boosters, is a separate issue, not least because there is no proof that boosters provide a significant enough change in protection to make a difference. Hence Dr. Ryan's comment about "giving a second lifejacket to someone". Giving boosters is therefore, based on current evidence, effectively pouring vaccines down the drain when other countries are in need of them.

It is an entirely separate issue to vaccinating young people in order to suppress high rates of infection in the population.

I think you are going to have to show us this data.

But we don't need these studies, things in Ireland are largely opened up and the growth in the number of cases has been moderate, so clearly vaccines are inhibiting transmission. Above all we need all over 12s vaccinated and then consider whether vaccination of children will reduce transmission to the point where this is not a problem.

We're a conservative country. That's the sad thing about it.

A conservative response for a conservative country.

Some Irish want to continue to wallow in Covid misery and "staying safe".