The Irish protocol.

FrancieBrady · 22-08-2021 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788697#Comment_117788697

The person who supplied the 'data' was www.wesleyjohnson.com, who, if you cared to look, supplies the answers to your follow on questions.

The 'Security forces' are the security forces of the state, which include the RUC UDR etc. Those security forces which the IRA were at war with and which were predominately protestant because of the sectarian state that Unionists set up. If you attacked the state the chances that it would be a protestant were therefore high, but was not the reason for the attack. Evidenced by the IRA's killing of many catholics who also worked or colluded with the 'security forces'.

downcow · 22-08-2021 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787843#Comment_117787843

I think we have bate this to death.

I think it would be ‘legitimate’ for republicans to gather today for a white line protest on the Falls road to draw attention to their concerns about treatment of prisoners. It would also be ‘illegal’.

I have no problem squaring that circle.

jm08 · 22-08-2021 3:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788737#Comment_117788737

Here is another opinion from a blog by someone who is a member of the PSNI Board.

Broken down by category, the responsibility for the deaths can be ascribed as follows:

While the killings are evidence of a very divided society, only a few have been sectarian in the sense of people from one community killing a person from the other but there have been a number of instances of loyalist paramilitaries killing Catholics, simply because of their religion.

For the most part though the victims of loyalist paramilitaries have been other loyalist paramilitaries - sometimes members of the same grouping, and sometimes of rival loyalist organisations. In total 41 loyalist paramilitaries have been killed. In every single case the perpetrators were other loyalist paramilitaries.

Republican paramilitaries have not engaged in feuds in the same way; instead their victims have tended to be those in their own communities who were unlucky enough to cross their paths.

https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/the-cruel-peace-killings-in-northern-ireland-since-the-good-friday-agreement

downcow · 22-08-2021 6:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788813#Comment_117788813

I find it simply remarkable that you imply the ira did not target people because of their religion. I genuinely want us to understand each other on this. Where I am coming from, it’s like saying Paisley liked the pope or Gerry wasn’t in the ira.

I could list endless cases across NI but also in my own local community. But help me understand how you view two fairly high profile ones as examples.

1) kingsmill - bus stopped, everyone out, identify who is not Protestant, tell him to run away, murder the rest. 11 Protestants dead

2) la mon- make a bomb in west Belfast, drive away from the catholic areas at big risk of getting caught, drive to a hotel with basically 100% Protestant clientele and workforce, leave a bomb attached to petrol, 12 people burnt to death and many more gravely injured, all Protestant.

help me understand how republicans think these were not sectarian??

FrancieBrady · 22-08-2021 7:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117789736#Comment_117789736

Nobody..nobody has ever said there were not sectarian acts, there was and there still are.

Conflating that to say the IRA were 'sectarian' or their campaign was, is simply wrong and your speed to drop the mythmaking about it earlier is evidence of the flimsiness of that belief.

I don't believe the UUP are sectarian but some of them have done sectarian things. The OO is sectarian because that's what it's rules are etc. That's how it works.

Junkyard Tom · 22-08-2021 8:02pm

We've been over this before, DC was going to email an academic to put them straight on the subject but we never heard of it again. Here's another one, DC might get around to having a few words with, who wrote in the Journal of Terrorism and Political Violence on the subject:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09546559708427385?journalCode=ftpv20

jm08 · 22-08-2021 11:44pm

Kingsmills was in response to the murder of catholics the night before in a tit-for-tat killing.

Le Mons bombing was a targetted bombing of an RUC gathering which actually happened the weeks before. As well as that, bearing in mind the involvement of double agents, I don't think protestants were the targets by the IRA as they thought they were bombing RUC personnel.

While the Kingsmills killings could be considered sectarian, it was retaliation for what happened the day before. If that had not happened, that minibus would not have been attacked.

downcow · 23-08-2021 7:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117791082#Comment_117791082

I am astounded at your reply. I don’t think I need to comment on it as I think all other posters bar 3 will be as shocked as me at your post.

just a couple of questions.

1) do you really believe the IRA were trying to kill police at a gathering in La Mon?

2) are you also linking Londonderry Bloody Sunday as tit-for-tat retaliation for what happened in Londonderry a few days before. If no, why not?

Seth Brundle · 23-08-2021 8:29am

Can we please get back to discussing the NIP rather than the troubles?

FrancieBrady · 23-08-2021 10:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117791554#Comment_117791554

The Protocol is here to stay Seth. It has worked so far to mitigate the effects of Brexit now being felt by supply chains in Britain itself.

To be quite honest, and I don't often praise our government, but the cross party cohesiveness of the Dublin response to Brexit was expertly harnessed by the sitting government and we have protected all the people on this island, regardless of belligerent Unionist angst about abstract notions of connection and belonging. That is disappearing now as predicted and they will do their usual thing of fashioning a hollow victory out of it all.

Seth Brundle · 23-08-2021 10:51am

I agree with both points that you make Francie - that the NIP is here to stay and that all people of NI have been protected from the harm of Brexit by the Irish government, despite the claims by unionists and loyalists. It is a pity that they refuse to see that.

Nonetheless, I think discussion about the troubles should be left for another thread and hopefully others will agree. 👍️

FrancieBrady · 23-08-2021 10:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117792104#Comment_117792104

Agree. They are just being used to deflect from the issue.

briany · 23-08-2021 11:03am

I've fallen out of the loop on this story due to the interminable back and forth between the EU and UK on the issue. Is the standoff still ongoing between the two parties? Is September still the cut off for the 'grace period'?

Seth Brundle · 23-08-2021 11:09am

I'll admit, this satirical headline made me laugh out loud...

https://twitter.com/MallowNews/status/1429741472077725707

FrancieBrady · 23-08-2021 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117792147#Comment_117792147

Yes. But talks on implementing the easements and flexibilities within the protocol are ongoing as far as I know. I do some work for a haulier in the north and his company is, right now making a huge investment in new truck units and trailers. He is even diversifying into tautliner work as he sees it as a growth area.

The oppurtunities the Protocol offers in terms of an all island economy are kicking in. He is hauling all his stuff through the south, Dublin and Rosslare. A complete turnaround in his work.

jm08 · 23-08-2021 12:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117791487#Comment_117791487

1) do you really believe the IRA were trying to kill police at a gathering in La Mon?

Today we can also reveal how the Provo gang that night 34 years ago thought they were unleashing the might of their deadly bomb on a gathering of RUC men at the hotel but had actually got the wrong date.

Our source said: "They thought the hotel would be filled with RUC personnel - they were the intended target. "The RUC gathering was to the day - a week before.

"They got the wrong night. It was a botched job."

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/DONALDSON%2BWAS%2BLA%2BMON%2BBOMBER%3B%2BHOTEL%2BMASSACRE%2BREVELATION.-a0280447712

The reason why the British Government were reluctant to grant a hearing is because they themselves were up to their neck in it with their double agents who were involved in the bombing.

2) are you also linking Londonderry Bloody Sunday as tit-for-tat retaliation for what happened in Londonderry a few days before. If no, why not?

No, I'm not. It was the British Army who were meant to be neutral, who killed all those people on Bloody Sunday. Are you confirming now that the British Army were engaged in tit-for-tat retaliation against catholics? By thinking that, you are legitimising the PIRA as the defenders of the nationalist/catholic community against state oppression!

downcow · 23-08-2021 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117792660#Comment_117792660

Exactly the clarification I expected from you. You are predictable.

so the ira can’t have it both ways. Do you realise you are talking about total carnage and lives wrecked?

they initially said that they tried to give an adequate warning so everyone could get out, and other posters on here have said this every time La Mon comes up - that it was an economic target.

but you are right that other IRA statements completely contradict this and say they were trying to kill the guests who they say they thought were police officers (and of course their wives, girlfriends and all the staff - La Mon was also a big complex with always a number of functions happing)

so at best they were happy to burn to death Protestant staff and girlfriends as long as they got some police,

or alternatively they just wanted to get prods.

I personally believe the latter but the former makes them no less sectarian and vicious .

…and remember who was in charge of the area the team came out of, mr sectarian himself Gerry Adams.

Dazler97 · 23-08-2021 4:07pm

I wonder when we will have a united Ireland, only thing is unless we get 3 more counties Derry, Tyrone and Fermanagh, to me as I'm up north alot 4 days a week, most unionist live in Belfast etc

Beasty · 23-08-2021 6:21pm

Stick to the topic everyone (which is not the history of the troubles)

Any questions PM me - do not respond to this warning in-thread

FrancieBrady · 24-08-2021 11:07am

'They'll never take our milkshakes'. 😁

No issues with supply in northern Ireland apparently.

McDonald's has run out of milkshake in all UK restaurants following supply chain issues | Business News | Sky News

Seth Brundle · 24-08-2021 11:11am

So in theory, the supply chain issues because of Brexit will go towards helping with the obesity problem. A Brexit win?

24-08-2021 11:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796539#Comment_117796539

Not if the say fresh fruit and veg not being delivered is replaced by frozen chips that can sit in container while waiting to for a driver.

mariab21 · 25-08-2021 8:58am

https://twitter.com/SanjayFBPEUK/status/1430088024642179090?s=19

Brexit is going well across the water

FrancieBrady · 25-08-2021 10:18pm

The much vaunted Protocol protest in Enniskillen eek!

Loyalism and belligerent Unionism marched up the hill and back down again...again

Moore Holmes on Twitter: "A valuable number of protestors take to the street in Enniskillen in defiance against the Protocol. Great speeches from @JamieBrysonCPNI & @JimAllister who exposed the flaws of the Protocol and called for the robust action required to rid ourselves of it. Unionism must act. https://t.co/SeQbl8Zrzf" / Twitter

Fionn1952 · 26-08-2021 7:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803961#Comment_117803961

Most of the Unionists from the area (or at least the few who knew about it, despite them paying the Impartial Reporter to let folks know) were laughing at the bussed in, 'protest'.

Imagine thinking you'd have any sort of significant support trying to agitate for a border on the island of Ireland.....in one of the spots that would be most negatively impacted by said border.

I'm always impressed at just how great an impression of an ostrich Bryson can pull when confronted by just how few people actually give a sh*te what he's pushing.

FrancieBrady · 26-08-2021 8:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804533#Comment_117804533

All paternal cousins live in Enniskillen and Fermanagh and all say the same, there was hardly any Enniskillen people at it. There's another video of them marching down the street and take out the band there's about 50 there.

13, or 14,000 population and that was the best they could do? The protest is dead I fear, political shenanigans, the people don't care.

pixelburp · 26-08-2021 9:00am

Problem is, the people might not care, or show broad support towards the mechanisms in place, but I'd worry about the capacity of extremist opinions to express them through violence. How many of those flute players have other "extra curricular activities"? That's the slippery slope here; the existential crisis clearly visible by these outward demonstrations of fealty to a project clearly disinterested in NI's health, may yet pivot towards armed resistance. Where else has loyalism to go now? Moderate unionism might recognise the realpolitik but hardcore loyalism quivers at the encroaching reality of a shared, cooperative island, separated for the slowly unravelling "mainland".

FrancieBrady · 26-08-2021 9:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804765#Comment_117804765

Sadly, you may get a Michael Stone like nutter, always possible. But when you have a senior Minister and MLA having to invent threats I think any sustained campaign is a dead duck tbh.

The crack down on extreme Loyalism from every quarter would be so vicious they wouldn't survive it long enough to achieve anything.

I think that is the barrel they are looking down tbh and it is why, despite plenty of encouragement nothing of note has happened.

lurleen lumpkin · 26-08-2021 9:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804765#Comment_117804765

Already been mooted in yet another one of Downcow's right place at the right time 'overheard' conversations. An Omagh bomb in Temple bar I think it was.

Fionn1952 · 26-08-2021 10:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804630#Comment_117804630

I believe it was counted at 42 people, excluding the band from the video posted by The Impartial Reporter. Most of those 42 bussed in. You'll note a few faces like Jolene Bunting in there to give the game away....last I checked, she wasn't from Enniskillen. The few hangers on at the very back are the Enniskillen contingent I reckon.

I'll also highlight that Enniskillen has grown since the 2011 census, estimates have the population at around 18,000 now.

Christ, they couldn't even get a decent band. I saw footage of them playing The Sash on the march through the town. You'd wonder how many times the bands have played the Sash, and this lot still manage to be out of tune. While marching bands aren't my cup of tea, I'm still aware there are some tremendously talented musicians among them.....this was clearly the bottom of the barrel all round.

The Irish protocol.

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