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The Ivermectin discussion

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm honestly not sure if you're trying to engage in good faith or just enjoying your impenetrable sense of superiority, but I was just commenting that 0% death and 0.2% hospitalisation rate seems pretty good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    The article does not even mention if and how many were vaccinated. Which tests (PCR or antigen) were used to determin if they are ill. If and which other medications were used.

    Experimenting on prison inmates is unethical.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 113 studies (c19ivermectin.com)


    All of these stupid studies and the growing number of stupid countries.

    How come all these countries are wrong but we are right?

    Ourselves, China and Austrailia dont take ivermectin.

    Is covid in Austrailia and China?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I guess it will be up to a court to decide if it's a doctor using off-label medication they believe will have medical benefits or a doctor experimenting on inmates.

    Anyway, the figure remains interesting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    Scam website.


    Example:

    It lists Germany as one country with Ivermectin 'adoption'.

    If you look at actual adoption, the recommendation of the RKI in Germany is 'low evidence, use only in clinical studies'.


    You can find links and articles in many countries, where conspiracy nuts praise Ivermectin. Listing these on a website and calling it 'adoption' does not mean that there is actual adoption in hospitals for real-world use.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The sheer weight of all those trials.

    All those countries endorsing it will firstly bring regulators first to say if you want to take it we wont stop you.

    Its like a world map during WII were eventually we win.

    Eventually your GP will prescribe it frequently.

    A-D - High, Medium, Low, Very Low.

    So its a C in Germany currently.

    Monoconoal antibodies with hiqa is also on a C (Low).

    IVM is also on a B (Moderate) from June Meta analysis 62% improvement in severe illness.

    Who said its a scam?

    You?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭GooglePlus


    How is the Kowa study going in Japan? I've seen Haruo Ozaki, chairman of the Tokyo Medical Association, has mentioned the results are promising and seems to be promoting it's use but still awaiitng the results of the trial. He mentioned it publically in February and has again promoted it's use publically this month.


    Japan's Deputy Director-General of the Ministry of Health will be pushing for it's approval off the back of all this as well it seems.

    https://nordot.app/800589299307397120?c=39550187727945729

    Anyone have more information on this, I haven't really been following this but their stance on it seems a far stretch away from some on here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭SortingYouOut


    I think the Director-General said he would push for approval if the study yields results but not until then. Results look to be promising though and I don't see why this crazy "horse paste" would even be considered if there wasn't some sort of promise. Seems others on here have the inside scoop elsewhere or just like to cherry pick to suit their side. It's weird that there even are sides on this, people holding this so close to their heart like politics. Tribalism is strange and seems to blind from looking outside the box they've put themselves in.

    Beverly Hills, California



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,592 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Patients are never going to be given unlicensed, experimental treatments (with significant side effects) to take at home without supervision should they be asymptomatic or minorly symptomatic. If they are significantly symptomatic they're going to hospital anyway.

    Patients with a rampantly infectious disease are not suitable for any form of in-community supervised care.

    They are always going to be treated in hospital.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,951 ✭✭✭✭banie01




  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭ligind




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭PureIsle


    Would this help to change any minds about the use of Ivermectin?

    Tokyo's Medical Assoc. Chairman holds press conference recommending Ivermectin to all COVID patients

    Apparently I am unable to post a link now.

    "You have to be around for a little while longer before you can post links."

    Very odd that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkWOpFk1GGk

    Anyway have a look at this video on youtube



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    As of 24 August 2021, Japan still does NOT allow Ivermectin to be used to treat or prevent COVID-19.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What?

    You understand that the study has to take place over a period of time and then go through analysis, methods/results etc have to be written up by the people running the study, the resulting document has to be edited, proof-read, double-checked by peers, then submitted to a journal where an editorial board will usually take its sweet time scrutinising it before deciding whether or not to push it through to peer-review, the peer-review process takes from weeks to months, depending how long it takes the reviewers to get back, and then eventually, if the report is not rejected at the peer-review stage, it will often be sent back to the scholars for review/revision based on any comments from the peers, and then, if and when the editorial board are satisfied, it'll be published.

    It's not a "year old" study. It was published today.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭ligind


    Author said they found it difficult to get it published without funding.

    Preprint available since April .



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Right, but the peer-reviewed study was published today.

    Had it been posted here as a pre-print in April, it would have been dismissed outright. "LOL not even peer reviewed. On yer bike, horse paste shill!" etc etc ad intedium.



  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    OK, let's look at the facts.


    The study is available here:

    As the title says, it's about a Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis Method - not about treating Covid with Ivermectin. Again, for health care workers.


    The study began on June 29, 2020, and ended on July 26, 2020.

    Meaning, before vaccines were available as a more effective pre-exposure prophylaxis method.


    The 'Limitations' section seems to invalidate all actual findings in the study. Quote:

    There was no RT-PCR test at the start or exit of this study, neither in the ivermectin group nor in the control group. There is the possibility that asymptomatic cases were not detected. 



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ivermectin as prophylaxis has been posited. It’s still a positive result (particularly in light of ongoing vaccine data) strongly indicative of antiviral effect.

    Healthcare workers make a good study cohort because of their exposure.

    The lack of a PCR test at the start and end of the study does not invalidate the study.

    Covid cases during the study period were diagnosed with PCR.

    Anyone who had a positive PCR prior to the study was excluded.

    When the study ended and the Ivermectin group stopped taking it, their infection rate normalised to match that of the control group.

    Why are you under the impression that a lack of PCR testing at the start and end of the trial invalidates the whole thing?

    Or did you just scroll down to the limitations section for a wee “gotcha” to post?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭GooglePlus


    That fact check page, which is just a technology website, isn't referring to what that video is discussing. Nobody said Japan has given it the greenlight, it's undergoing trial and that chairman of the med association has been pushed it into the public light. This was reported on Nikkei and other reputable sources in Japan.

    That fact checking website is about as reliable as a random tweet anyway, it's just one person using their tech site.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The mad thing is there are literally hundreds of properly organised trials ongoing looking at both new and established medicines for Covid.

    The only thing that sets these couple of drugs apart is the absolute chancers relentlessly pushing them, and gullible people falling for it because they want to believe in the conspiracy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭SortingYouOut


    Beverly Hills, California



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,142 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    The central conspiracy is that the benefits and adoption of Ivermectin as a prophylactic and/or therapy have been systematically ignored/sidelined/derailed because it is not profitable for Big Pharma, who are more interested in pushing expensive "experimental" vaccines, monoclonal antibodies etc.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A very small number of people who think Ivermectin might work against covid believe that the reason it's being suppressed is because of financial interests in Big Pharma (or payoffs or whatever), and believe that the reasons Merck disavowed Ivermectin (its own drug) are 1: it's off-patent, so not profitable, 2: they have a contract with BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna to produce LNPs for their mRNA vaccines, and 3: they entered into a $1.7 billion procurement contract with the US federal govt in June to provide a new, in-patent drug they are currently trialling for mild-to-moderate Covid treatment.

    Which would be a conspiracy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭SortingYouOut


    I listened to Pierre Kory allude to that alright and I guess there's never going to be a way to know if it is the case or not. They are a business at the end of the day and are not doing the work they do for the good of our health, it's all about money. You could see why an orally administered drug that shows potential promise and that can be cheaply manufactured anywhere would cause concern for a company looking to release their own anti-viral that's in the pipeline, probably for mega money as well.

    That is a conspiracy theory but that being so doesn't make it untrue, pharmaceuticals don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to morals over money.

    I thought the poster might have been saying that the conspiracy theory is the fact that Ivermectin shows promise against Covid-19, which wouldn't be true.

    Beverly Hills, California



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Hmmm. OK, here are the flaws with this study;

    1. Retrospective, not prospective. When you go looking for an effect in data that already exists, you never get as reliable a result as when you start with a blank slate.
    2. Completely unblinded. Everyone knew exactly who was getting what so there is a huge possibility of a placebo effect.
    3. Treatment was self-selecting; participants were given the option to take it, not take it or stop treatment, but were then assigned to treatment groups on that basis. That's a serious flaw.
    4. No objective analysis of outcomes, i.e. they should have been doing weekly PCR tests. Relying on spontaneous reporting of results by the participants is incredibly unreliable, especially when so many Covid cases are mild or asymptomatic.
    5. Size and duration of the study; 540 subjects studied for four weeks isn't nearly enough to normalise for the bias that might be introduced by points 1 - 4. The number of total events (i.e. people getting Covid) in the control group is so small that even a single outbreak e.g. people all working in the same ward, would completely skew results. You would need thousands of people over a period of months to get a reliable outcome.

    I have no idea if ivermectin works or does not work, but this study does not really add anything to the evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    One thing that the conspiracy overlooks.

    If Merck ran a clinical trial and proved that ivermectin works in Covid, they would get market exclusivity on it for a year in both US and Europe. That would be a full year, and probably more, of being the only company allowed to sell ivermectin to treat Covid in the two biggest pharma markets in the world.

    And they just don't want to do it?

    I don't understand how people reconcile "giant pharma corp only interested in money" with "giant pharma corp leaves billions sitting on the table"



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭GooglePlus


    If Merck ran a clinical trial and proved that ivermectin works in Covid, they would get market exclusivity on it for a year in both US and Europe. 

    How so?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    Didn't know this either but this article seems to explain it:

    The Drug Competition and Patent Term Restoration Act, or the Hatch-Waxman Act, passed in 1984, provides up to fve years market exclusivity to companies introducing a new chemical entity to the market (NCE Exclusivity) and up to three years’ market exclusivity for conducting clinical trials to support changes to products already on the market (Clinical Investigation or CI Exclusivity). Pharmaceutical companies are not required to apply for these Hatch-Waxman exclusivities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former



    Yep, there are incentives in place for pharma companies (since long before Covid) to repurpose existing drugs for new uses. The idea is to get companies to run clinical trials and generate good quality evidence, rather than the wild west approach of just throwing unproven drugs into patients.

    As noted above, it's actually three years in the USA. Three years of sales in the USA, for a drug that's already sitting in their warehouse... and they're just not bothered?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭Stormyteacup


    But if the drug sitting in their warehouse has run out of patent then anyone can produce and sell, presumably. If they repurpose/tweak existing drug, or introduce something brand new, they get three years of market exclusivity?

    At least that’s how it reads. 3 years of market exclusivity is surely worth orders of magnitude more to them than competing in the market with all other pharma companies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    Looked a bit more into this and for a generic drug, an Abbreviated New Drug Application (ANDA) would give you 180 days exclusivity which would be a major money spinner for any company if they could prove first that the drug was an effective treatment for Covid.


    Generic Drugs

    Under the Hatch-Waxman act, the first company to submit an Abbreviated New Drug Application (ANDA) to the FDA has the exclusive right to market the generic drug for 180 days. While this exclusivity period pales in comparison to the longer exclusivities enjoyed by branded drugs and biologics, the 180 days of exclusivity is significant in the world of generic drugs. One of the main advantages is that this period allows for the establishment of that first generic drug as the primary low-cost alternative to the branded drug and facilitates early adoption by hospitals and retail pharmacies.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I guess it would depend. They have Phase III trials running on a different therapeutic drug that would be patented and they have the contracts to produce LNPs for prophylactic mRNA injections. Assuming that Ivermectin were a prophylactic and therapeutic drug in relation to Covid-19, they would almost certainly stand to gain more from those two than from a limited-time repurposing exclusivity where price gouging would be immediately obvious and threaten to destroy the reputation of a company that is only really just recovering from previous reputation damage that occurred when they purposely suppressed unfavourable cardiovascular safety information about one of their drugs. So the profit motive would seem to be in favour of new drug + LNP production.

    The main reason I can see for the theory being BS is that Ivermectin will likely, at some in the near future, be proven effective or ineffective against Covid (in whatever capacity). So IF Merck thought that it was effective it would be an incredibly stupid move to say that it wasn't while working on an (ostensible) competitor drug that will be more expensive and more difficult to initially produce at scale. It doesn't strike me as the sort of gamble even a profit-driven "big pharma" company with some disgustingly shady history would take.



  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    Let me add to that:


    • the study did not look into the efficacy of Ivermectin, but into the efficacy of a combination of Ivermectin plus Iota-Carrageenan 6 nasal sprays, administered daily. Meaning, any efficacy results could mean that Ivermectin is completely ineffective, the observed effect is exclusively due to the nasal spray. Or vice versa. Or a combination - works only when both components are involved
    • no PCR before and after means that you cannot know anything about actual effectiveness
    • the study did not look into the efficacy of any other measures, meaning, which test subjects used masks, used different types of masks, took other medications
    • the study did not look into which subjects were exposed to super spreaders, the results could be caused by exposure, rather than medication efficacy
    • it was not a randomised study


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭PureIsle


    Horse Paste indeed!

    www.nature.com/articles/ja201711


    Acknowledgements

    Having spent a good deal of time during the past 25 years among remote rural communities in Africa while following the ivermectin story, I wish to convey to Satoshi Ōmura the grateful thanks of millions of men, women and children in such communities whose health, nutrition, education, economic situation and social status have been immeasurably improved by their access to ivermectin. Without his innovation, vision, drive and unwavering commitment, their lives and livelihoods would still be blighted by disease and misery. I also wish to convey my profound thanks to him for the opportunity of working alongside him and for his personal friendship, chivalry and tutelage in the art of interpersonal respect and understanding in the pursuit of all partnerships and collaborative endeavors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    Arstechnica:


    Key points (quotes):

    • In humans, the FDA has approved ivermectin tablets to treat conditions caused by parasitic intestinal worms as well as topical formulations for some external parasites, like head lice
    • At low concentrations, the drug interferes with specific ion channels that are found in parasitic nematode worms, but not in people or animals.
    • ivermectin drugs available to people involve relatively small doses and are in formulations known to be safe for human use
    • The over-the-counter livestock drugs .. are not formulated for human use and have much larger doses for the animals' much larger bodies
    • At higher concentrations, ivermectin begins to interfere with not just nematode ion channels, but other types of critical channels in humans and animals, like neurotransmitter channels. This can be extremely dangerous.
    • preliminary data suggested that the drug could thwart the pandemic coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2—at least in petri dishes
    • drug studies suggest that getting blood concentrations of ivermectin high enough to replicate the SARS-CoV-2-thwarting effects seen in petri dishes would "require administration of doses up to 100-fold higher than those approved for use in humans."




  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    This Nature article describes what I just mentioned in the Arstechnica summary: that Ivermectin has been used successfully in the poorest countries, for the purpose that it was created for - treating parasitic intestinal worms.



    The article is from 2017, and has nothing to do with Covid. It states:

     Ivermectin is a broad-spectrum anti-parasitic agent, primarily deployed to combat parasitic worms in veterinary and human medicine.

    Perhaps more than any other drug, ivermectin is a drug for the world’s poor. For most of this century, some 250 million people have been taking it annually to combat two of the world’s most devastating, disfiguring, debilitating and stigma-inducing diseases, Onchocerciasis and Lymphatic filariasis. Most of the recipients live in remote, rural, desperately under-resourced communities in developing countries and have virtually no access to even the most rudimentary of medical interventions.

    Onchocerciasis and Lymphatic filariasis are caused by parasitic worms.

    Ivermectin was a revelation. It had a broad spectrum of activity, was highly efficacious, acting robustly at low doses against a wide variety of nematode, insect and acarine parasites.

    The African Programme for Onchocerciasis Control was created in 1995 to establish community-directed treatment with ivermectin to control Onchocerciasis as a public health problem in African nations that represented 80% of the global disease burden. For long the sole agent used in control efforts, ivermectin has been so successful that the goal has now switched from disease control to worldwide disease elimination.

    It goes on about potential future use, that includes antiviral effects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭GooglePlus



    drug studies suggest that getting blood concentrations of ivermectin high enough to replicate the SARS-CoV-2-thwarting effects seen in petri dishes would "require administration of doses up to 100-fold higher than those approved for use in humans."

    The human dosing for Covid-19 treatment has been within safe levels, I don't think anyone is advising someone to take a dose fit for a horse. The petri-dish experiement is one thing, but there are plenty of human dose trials that have shown it to be effective.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Not big enough or issues with data is the common retort to that. If it is really that good a quality clinical trial will show it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭PureIsle


    Yes indeed that would be correct .... IF there was a requirement to get the blood concentrations up to that level.

    Fortunately that is not the case, as multiple studies have shown, and this is attributed by many to the multiple mechanisms present in the human body that were not present in the petri dish.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    https://www.nature.com/articles/ja201711

    Interesting article about Ivermectin from 2017, back before we had all the intellectual powerhouses around to give us their “lol horse paste” takes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭SortingYouOut


    Wasn't there only issues with one trial in the meta analysis and the head of that is currently disputing the claims against it, so in the air. Also, why are they too small, wasn't the remdesiver study confined to a tiny group of subjects?

    Beverly Hills, California



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,919 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    I think people fail to realize how relying on small trials cause anomalies. Take 2 participants, 1 takes a green tictac daily, one takes an orange one.

    At some point in time, one may contact covid, at which point the other one proves a certain colour tictak is effective vs Covid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    You may want to go back a few posts, where we discussed this study, that has nothing whatsoever to do with Covid, in detail.


    The horse paste thing only came up because more and more actual idiots here in the real world are buying it and ingesting it. Because, you know, vaccines are not really safe. Horse paste is. 🙄🙄🙄


    Nobody here, ever, questioned the efficacy of Ivermectin for River Blindness.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What study? Did you even click on the link you posted?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭SortingYouOut


    The remdesivir trial had just over 1000 patients, half with and half with a placebo. The anomalies you mention didn't seem to be an issue when granting that a licence.

    Beverly Hills, California



  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    Apologies for using the term 'study' instead of 'review article' for the piece about treating parasitic intestinal worms.

    The 'review article' has nothing whatsoever to do with Covid.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You're coming across like you're attempting to condescend but I can't for the life of my figure out what the hell you're talking about.

    What review article about treating parasitic intestinal worms? You were talking about river blindness a post back.

    The link I posted is still there, ya know. You could just click it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    Here's, again, the link you posted:

    From the article:

    The drug’s potential in human health was confirmed a few years later and it was registered in 1987 and immediately provided free of charge (branded as Mectizan)—‘as much as needed for as long as needed’—with the goal of helping to control Onchocerciasis (also known as River Blindness) among poverty-stricken populations throughout the tropics. 

    This unprecedented compound has mainly been used in humans as an oral medication for treating filarial diseases but is also effective against other worm-related infections and diseases, plus several parasite-induced epidermal parasitic skin diseases, as well as insect infestations. It is approved for human use in several countries, ostensibly to treat Onchocerciasis,


    So, looks like you posted a link to a Nature article that describes Ivermectin effectiveness in treating parasitic, intestinal worms, which cause illnesses such as Onchocerciasis (River Blindness), but either did not read the article, or did not understand what it is actually about.



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