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4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

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12467…42

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    #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808979#Comment_117808979

    LGBTQ?

    Lesbians are attracted to other ladies. I get that

    Gay people are attracted to the same-sex (thought that makes the L redundant tbh)

    Bisexuals are attracted to both sexes

    Trans people dont think they are the sex they are

    Queer don't feel like they can be defined


    Why the **** are the bottom two lumped in with the others?

    It has nothing to do with sexuality


    And even more importantly it's not appropriate for a **** 4 year old.


    If any **** thinks a child can "define their gender" while they still believe in santa then they should be on a list



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    #93
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808983#Comment_117808983

    If a little girl comes up and says "I'm a boy". Common sense would tell you to not encourage it because it's not true.

    That's a fact



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    #94
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808999#Comment_117808999

    Do you think a 4 year old little girl can be a 4 year old little boy?

    Careful now....

    This defines you.



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    #95
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809000#Comment_117809000

    Ultimately, this question boils down to the substance of the matter.

    If 4-year olds can be harnessed in this way, it sickens me to be a member of the so-called LGBT community.

    This is not what I'm a part of.



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    #96
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809005#Comment_117809005

    Not sure you understand what harnessing means...

    I completely.support you in not identifying as part of the LGBT community. Obviously your identity is very important to you (you mention it in every thread).



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    #97
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809009#Comment_117809009

    No answer to my question? Do you believe a 4 year old little girl can be a 4 year old little boy?

    Plus that was unnecessarily bitchy to say the other poster mentions their sexuality often when all you do is admonish people for not being inclusive to your "community"



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    #98
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809009#Comment_117809009

    Never at the expense of vulnerable children.



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    #99
    RWCNT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808930#Comment_117808930

    Quick point of information: it's not a piece of legislation that has been brought in, Eski - it's a non-prescriptive guidance produced by the Scottish govt.

    The full piece of guidance is available to read here for anyone that's interested, before this thread is inevitably closed, like its predecessors, because those most interested in this topic can't seem to discuss it without insulting eachother: https://www.gov.scot/publications/supporting-transgender-young-people-schools-guidance-scottish-schools



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    #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809044#Comment_117809044

    I saw that. But we have seen over the last couple of years where "guidance" was taken as fact.

    The fact that this was deemed acceptable "guidance" is the problem.



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    #101
    RWCNT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809054#Comment_117809054

    What parts of the guidance do you find objectionable? I haven't had the chance to read it in detail yet. On first glance I'm not too troubled. Names, pronouns, whatever. It's not like it's mandating genital surgery or something. I can see a concern with facilities, but I'm sure there's a practical solution for that somewhere.



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    #102
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809056#Comment_117809056

    Any part of accepting that a child should be able to choose their "gender" (where sex and gender aren't explicitly separate) is an issue.

    Also, acceptance of a child's whimsical thoughts which go against biology when it suits an agenda is troubling. I doubt the school would be encouraging a child to represent as a table, even though it's equally as absurd.

    I don't think we should wait until genital surgery is acceptable before we voice our opposition.

    It may be controversial, but I don't think a little girl who says she is a little boy should be taken seriously.



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    #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809056#Comment_117809056
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809015#Comment_117809015

    Do you think children should be able to choose their race?



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    #104
    RWCNT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809069#Comment_117809069

    We'll have to wait and see what happens if and when the transfurniture community reaches prevalence to know for sure, I suppose. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, no doubt.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809070#Comment_117809070

    Did you mean to quote my post here? I'm not seeing the relevance. A child's race shouldn't have any impact on their schooling, so if John Smith decides he's going to be Oluwale Babafemi then I really couldn't care. There is a practical element with sex/gender though in terms of facilities, uniforms etc. so therefore I would like to see some practical solutions arrived at that work for all involved. I'd like to keep any contributions I make to this thread focused on practicalities in relation to issues that actually currently exist rather than answering hypothetical questions and going into quasi-philosophical tangents. I think we both know another poster who'll be only delighted to do so at great length ;) Quite looking forward to their arrival in the thread tbh



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    #105
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    .

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809080#Comment_117809080

    When you say: "There is a practical element with sex/gender though in terms of facilities, uniforms etc. so therefore I would like to see some practical solutions arrived at that work for all involved."

    Do you mean all? Does it include the parents of teen girls who might object to their children sharing toilet facilities, dorm rooms and changing rooms with a trans-identified male "lesbian", for example?



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    #106
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805132#Comment_117805132

    That video is just as ignorant as the original DM article!


    Paraphrasing from the clip:

    "Not a single trans person at his school"

    Doubt it, probably the same percentage as there always was but anyone admitting it in the 90s/00s in a Scottish school would have had the sh!t kicked out of them. So that gets pretty quickly hidden and repressed.

    This isn't about brainwashing kids, it's about providing support for those struggling. As usual, people need to calm down before spreading ignorance on the internet.



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    #107
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809069#Comment_117809069

    And not taking children seriously in these matters has been the status quo for a while, and where had that gotten us?



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    #108
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808982#Comment_117808982

    I have a 5 year old and a 7 year old and in my (limited) experience they often play at being the opposite gender particularly my boy who will often wear a princess dress for playtime.

    If one of them got to be called a different name they would immediately both want it. My fear with this law is that it may be adding too much gravitas to an activity that could be playtime for many kids.

    And a general question for someone with more knowledge than me on the subject but would a 5 or 6 year old know at that age that they are trans? If there are trans people here how early did you know? When I was a kid there were many times where I thought I would prefer to be a girl but it was just a phase for me and if this had been publicly available information in the school I went to my life would have been destroyed by bullying.



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    #109
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809139#Comment_117809139

    It's an interesting point. For some kids it could absolutely be kids being kids and wanting to play etc.

    But for a lot (most?) trans people, they know from a very young age. However, up until recently (probably even still now) talking about this would get you bullied.

    So I guess the trick is to work out which is which at that age and support the ones that need it?

    But the DM, boards or YouTube isn't the place to have that level of nuance.



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    #110
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Given the high rate of same sex schools in Ireland it does raise some questions then as to how we can actually accommodate kids with these thoughts/persuasions

    Post edited by Pawwed Rig on


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    #111
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809134#Comment_117809134

    You are of the opinion that we should take 4 year olds seriously when it comes to what they "identify" as?

    Now think carefully, what does that mean?

    Are you talking about their "gender" (which is nebulous and can mean anything) or do you mean taking them seriously if they feel they are the opposite sex?

    It's this conflation of sex and gender which has gotten us where we are, not treating boys as if they were boys and girls if they were girls.



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    #112
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809250#Comment_117809250

    😆

    I have thought very carefully about it. It's something I've looked into quite a lot.

    You have different opinions, that's grand so, but I don't need to think very carefully to fit your interpretations.



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    #113
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809327#Comment_117809327

    I've not asked you to think carefully to fit into anything I interpret. Bizarre you would think I was suggesting it.

    I did ask a question though which you didn't answer.

    Are you talking about their "gender" (which is nebulous and can mean anything) or do you mean taking them seriously if they feel they are the opposite sex?



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    #114
    RWCNT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809106#Comment_117809106

    Yes, the views of parents should be taken into account and accommodated where its possible to do so. Within reason and with respect to any applicable laws of course - because if two sets of parents want completely opposite things then you can't make everyone 100%, happy.



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    #115
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809144#Comment_117809144

    Traditionally, the numbers of genuine trans people were minuscule (even with the idea that many were hiding that belief). Then the social sciences got caught up in it, promoted the "issue" to death, and suddenly we had large numbers of people identifying as trans. The problem being that those original people who considered themselves to be trans were under a very narrow category of belief about their sex and gender. Now, the category of trans has been expanded to cover a wide range of opinions. And while psychology, as an industry and science, was traditionally against it all, have since decided to embrace and promote anything that pushes people towards it... at a time when American psychology becomes more of a commercial enterprise than a reliable science.

    However, the true problem is agenda and conditioning. If you tell a 5 year old girl that they are confused, and are really a boy, what do you think will happen? Do you think that child has the confidence and knowledge to resist those suggestions? To resist the beliefs of the adults around them? Because any belief in this gender change would be coming from parents and adults, not children who barely appreciate any differences between the sexes. And definitely don't understand the social consequences to such a decision, nor what it might lead to.

    Imagine for a moment that this proposed Idea was accepted and implemented... what would come next? What more could parents decide to change about their children? Or convince their children to accept, due to the trusting place they have in the mind of children?



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    #116
    LLMMLL
    Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809139#Comment_117809139

    Ah the old gay chestnuts. That if we "allow" something it may "influence" someone. Big deal. First there's the assumption that whatever they might be influenced in is inherently bad. Secondly it's equally likely there will be no influence at all.



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    #117
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810079#Comment_117810079

    Don’t forget the assertions that people who can understand what’s going on are no better than paedophiles/nonces.

    Also, it’s ‘disgusting’ to compare this to homosexuality, despite the fact all of these conversations happened way back when too (and in some cases still do).



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    #118
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810079#Comment_117810079

    The problem is that the definition of trans- has become so elastic in recent years that it now includes non-binary people etc. So, just saying you identify as astralgender (an affinity to stars), to give one of an infinity of possible examples, is also considered transgender.

    It's no longer about what it used to be about: feeling that you want to live as the opposite sex.

    Now that gender identity is lumped into trans-, it now includes many people who would otherwise have said they were gay. Perhaps they are very feminine, but are just a feminine gay. With the social introduction of "non-binary", many of the same people now believe that these labels are what they really are. And it has caused nothing but problems.

    Nobody is 100% masculine or 100% feminine, therefore by this logic we are all transgender people. That's why lumping gender into changing sex (trans-) is so problematic.

    And this is particularly problematic for 4-year old children who routinely act as if they want to live as the opposite sex, even if only briefly.



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    #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810079#Comment_117810079

    A child shouldn't be encouraged to believe they are a different sex to what they are which is what is happening when you legitimise and go along with the idea of a young girl thinking they are a boy or vice versa.

    They aren't.



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    #120
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810113#Comment_117810113

    What encouragement are you talking about here?

    The big trans army coming to trans our children, is that it?



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    #121
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    A guideline that basically says, "If a child expresses a wish to be treated as a different gender or called by a different name, then you shouldn't tell them they're wrong", and you have people getting all hot and bothered about it.

    FFS.



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