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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • #1772
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814405#Comment_117814405

    A transfer of votes from one party who opposes the protocol to another who opposes the protocol doesn't scream much of anything about said protocol to me.

    The Enniskillen turnout for Jamie and Jim's anti protocol protest (in a county with a strong Orange Order presence) is quite a lot more telling to me. I don't believe it is or will be very high on most people's priority list when it comes to deciding how to vote.



  • #1773
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814431#Comment_117814431

    Agree, what is happening here is a reaction to belligerent Unionism's approach to Brexit in general. It's payday for a complete lack of care or strategy.

    The quality of candidate the TUV stand could spell utter disaster as Unionists decline to vote at all.



  • #1774
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814445#Comment_117814445

    Jim Allister already crowing about Unionism taking down Stormont if SF return as the largest party.

    Despite the polling numbers, TUV are still essentially a one man party; they don't have the calibre of candidate to harness the polling numbers unless they can clone him.


    Jesus, that's a horrible thought.



  • #1775
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814517#Comment_117814517

    Yeah I agree with you. I know a TUV candidate standing locally for council and he is the religious right (I am not saying he is representative - like you say, we don’t know). I don’t think many here think the TUV offer a future but I think many do think they may offer a better resistance to Irish Sea checks than dup Personally I won’t be voting TUV 1 but they will get a preference well ahead of the dup



  • #1776
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814517#Comment_117814517

    All protest but no alternative or view of what the future would hold were there no Protocol.

    Will get badly exposed when campaign gets going properly and those questions are asked. Byson refuses point blank to map out the future if the Protocol goes and has no alternative, that is credible.

    Also, the effects of Brexit will really bite over the Xmas period with supply crisis deepening. 'There but for the grace of Dublin's intervention in our affairs, goes us', will be the sentence on a lot of northern lips.



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  • #1777
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815159#Comment_117815159

    But at what cost? If the aggressive belligerence and hardline opposition to basic rights of the TUV becomes the voice of Unionism and collapses Stormont just to oppose the NI Protocol (and the idea of a Nationalist First Minister).....and Boris continues to not give a b*llocks what anyone in NI thinks (which is a comment on Boris, not Unionism)....what has it achieved apart from making those people you're depending on for the continuation of your Union consider their options?

    The continuation of your Union depends on keeping people aboard; the Doug Beattie type talk about making an NI for everyone is a much more likely brand of Unionism to keep it alive than the, 'not a taig about the place' brand of Allister.



  • #1778
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815213#Comment_117815213

    Yes. And if we can believe to poll then that is the very type of unionism that will lead



  • #1779
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,876 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/1431664070558638082


    T'was a good game alright



  • #1780
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814405#Comment_117814405

    This is a good time to be honest about my thoughts on polls. The Lucid poll is just published with reassuring statistics for Unionism, it is therefore time for me to say that I do not have much faith in polls generally and I doubt the situation is quite as good as this poll suggests.

    I have not seen the newspapers so I am only getting the sexy snippets. I will try and see the full poll today.

    If the snippets I have seen reflect reality, then it is quite interesting.

    Could the TUV seriously be heading for becoming the biggest Unionist party. This is positive and negative. I talk to many people who say they are voting TUV for one simple reason - to bring down the institutions and thereby destabilise and hasten the addressing of the checks on the Irish Sea. If the TUV was to be the biggest Unionist party, then (as I understand it) Stormont falls because they will obviously not put someone forward for FM or DFM, and I think that is the inevitable collapse. This is fine with me as the Irish Sea checks break the GFA so needs to stop until these matters are ratified.

    This is all well and good but I would dread to have the TUV as the biggest Unionist party going forward into the future.

    The most positive piece of the poll for me is the continued rise of the UUP and indeed the fall of the DUP. I hope this is as real as the poll suggests.

    The snippets also suggest that unionism is looking less to the Alliance party.

    I haven't seen the overall stats on political parties I hear it is suggesting that Unionist parties are comfortably in the lead, and that is without even counting that a recent poll of Alliance voters suggested they were 75% pro union. Apart from the pointless nature and the destabilising impact of a border poll, I would say bring it on.

    so a great poll for unionism (from the sniopits) but then do polls mean anything

    PS the one thing the poll may be is create momentum for the TUV. If I thought the above scenario was likely then even I would lend me liberal Unionist vote to the TUV, but as soon as mission was accomplished my vote would be returning to progressive unionism



  • #1781
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What if bringing down the institutions brings about joint rule with dublin?


    If it as was rumoured was on the table previously,where deos this particular brainfart leave unionism......utterly divided/at each others throats and potentially unable to blaggard to use the PoC in stormont.....or else under joint rule from dub/london (wirh the strong likelyhood of sf in government in dublin too)??


    It all sounds wee bit like notion people voted brexit,to damage mainstream parties,utterly unaware of its potential outcomes



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  • #1782
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    In three decades or more of strategic blunders, transferring power to London and Dublin at this point has to top them all.

    To do it without a feasible alternative either, with no out clause that anyone can accept or even deliver is criminally irresponsible if you were holding people responsible for the care of the 'union'.

    I fancy this is just the dying embers of Never Never Never in this poll. The TUV will not be able to turn this into seats because they simply don't have the candidates. There is a huge sense of a lazy protest when you counterpoint this poll to what is happening on the streets.

    It would be good to hear Unionists moderate or belligerent outline what happens in their scenario when they bring down the institutions and refuse to work the protocol?

    What is it they want to be done? What can be done? And what response do they think will come from Nationalists, neutrals and those who vote for the Alliance who are all happy with the Protocol arrangement.



  • #1783
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817850#Comment_117817850

    I would disagree. I have not known unionism to be less devided in decades. Yes there is extreme annoyance at dup navigating to Irish Sea border and disgust that they are implementing it, but I as a uup voter am on the same page about the need to remove the bad bits of the protocol same as TUV, dup and pup voters. Some of those may be shouting about scrapping the entire protocol but I think the bottom line is we will all be happy and the union even more secure when the Irish Sea checks are minimised and we have the best of both worlds with unfettered access to Eu and rest of our own country.



  • #1784
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817883#Comment_117817883

    Unless they run a voting pact and work together,which they havnt done in a generation,unionism vote will be split.....while i agree people should vote who they want etc and all views that get rnough votes are worthy of representation


    If unionists vote for sole intention to collaspe institutions,then joint rule must firmly be on the table too,a political unwiingness to inform voters of this potential is ultimately a lack of leadership



  • #1785
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Any party whose manifesto is to collapse the mechanisms of governance, or erosions of legislature that allows continuance of that governance, should be considered a hostile belligerent to democracy itself. It may be a simplification of that branch of unionism position but they should be treated as anti-democratic traitors to NI democracy. Westminster quislings at best, apartheid nostaglists at worst. They'd rather see it all burn than acknowledge the complexity of their own "wee" nation. They should be frozen out of any and all discussions on NIs future but while they can trade on fear of the Tahdg, they'll continue to be relevant.



  • #1786
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817895#Comment_117817895

    I think the TUV are very clear with voters and have informed them that they will not nominate a FM or DFM if they are in the position to do so. Should enough people want this brought to a head and lend them their vote then that is what will happen. And as you say people should vote how they want.

    I again say I don’t trust this poll so I don’t think TUV are this close to being biggest party unionist but I could be wrong. Polls like this though will give momentum and encourage people to lend their vote.



  • #1787
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,212 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    we will all be happy and the union even more secure when the Irish Sea checks are minimised and we have the best of both worlds with unfettered access to Eu and rest of our own country.

    You really don't get it. You cannot have both because your government dont want you to have both.



  • #1788
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817920#Comment_117817920

    Remarkable stuff!

    if someone takes a democratic peaceful route to get change, you say they should be “considered a hostile belligerent to democracy itself…. And should be treated as anti-democratic traitors to NI democracy. Westminster quislings at best, apartheid nostaglists at worst”

    yes quite remarkable.

    Tell me where you place sf who openly supported the murder of their own constituents and still celebrate those who done the murdering?



  • #1789
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817950#Comment_117817950

    eu insisted that Uk signed up to rules including, that dogs moving within a rabies-free territory require to be immunised against rabies



  • #1790
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817895#Comment_117817895

    In a TUV biggest party scenario, it doesn’t matter a jot about splits or even how many MLAs are elected from each party. As I understand it, the fact TUV would not nominate would mean there would be no institutions.

    maybe I am wrong, but usually a few posters on here are lightning quick at pointing out when I am wrong, so I take their silence to mean I am probably spot on 😀



  • #1791
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817953#Comment_117817953

    What about what about? Show me where I spoke to the absolute morality of other parties?. Sinn Fein's history might be reprehensible but it operates within the codified structures of NI governance, it does not actively try to dismantle them; no doubt because it knows self representation works better for the province overall. If you want to debate the morality of their beliefs fill your boots - you won't see me disagreeing so nice try assuming my tacit support. But trying to draw equivalence between allies to murders with those who'd remove structural democracy from NI speaks to your sense of absolutes, not mine. It's not SFs core belief to remove democracy from NI.

    No, any party that takes a "peaceful" route to removing democratic, self governance institutions is, by definition, hostile to democracy. Its inherent in the very conceit. Those that wish to destroy the assembly don't wish to save it, no matter how it's phrased, or the waffle presented to justify a return to London control.



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  • #1792
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817950#Comment_117817950

    What unionism really doesnt get is that collapsing the institutions is an indication of powerfulness not power.

    Strategically blind to the consequences.



  • #1793
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817974#Comment_117817974

    And as such,joint dub/london rule should be on table for negociations


    People are free to vote for em on premise they'll collaspe the institutions/refuse to nominate, (personally think stormomt is long overdue winding up-deosnt work,and wont ever)


    but they cant complain if they find emselves under joint rule from dub/london,with the strong likelyhood of it being a sinn fein participated government in dublin



  • #1794
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817961#Comment_117817961

    *currently* Rabies free. That's the part you keep missing when it comes to all these checks. England and Wales chose to Brexit and would not guarantee that the UK continue to meet or exceed EU standards going forward....while everything is grand now before there has been any divergence, who knows how things will be a year, five years or ten years from now. It is entirely possible the UK will stay Rabies free, it is entirely possible the UK will continue to maintain excellent food standards.....but when you're outside the oversight of the EU, taking back all that sovereignty, then checks are needed to confirm that things entering our market are of an appropriate standard.

    It is mind boggling at this point that the outrage that Britain can't leave the club and keep using the facilities still persists.


    This isn't Britain being treated differently or punished....this is Britain being treated like a third country with respect to the EU (because it insisted on that), with a great deal of easements being introduced for NI......all of which were agreed by your government. No one held Britain's feet over the fire.



  • #1795
    Suckler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭Suckler


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817961#Comment_117817961

    Again; this just highlights your inherent lack of understanding of what was agreed and, more pointedly, how westminster went about agreeing it.



  • #1796
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817977#Comment_117817977

    This is even more remarkable. Did you miss the three years that the shinners collapsed the institutions. I take it you are on a wind up this morning?



  • #1797
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817989#Comment_117817989

    Where does that fit into the gfa?

    Could you direct us to the paragraph?

    ….or maybe you think it’s time to bin the gfa and renegotiate!



  • #1798
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817991#Comment_117817991

    well then be consistent in your argument and insist we get malaria and smallpox as well



  • #1799
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817974#Comment_117817974

    If the TUV returned the greatest number of MLAs among Unionist parties (I suspect they won't be able to put forward enough notable candidates to actually harness the sentiment expressed within the poll, but hypothetically if they could and did), then you would be potentially correct; another snap election would be called and if it returned the same result, there would be no way to have the institutions up and running.

    I still don't get what it would achieve; the last time the institutions were collapsed didn't really work out terribly well for Unionism, and I suspect after a brief spell of London/Dublin joint rule, Jim wouldn't be long in finding a compromise that would enable him to go back to the table (likely at the cost of half his party defecting off into another Unionist party split; The Real True Unionist Voice party or some such), leaving someone else as the actual



  • #1800
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818018#Comment_117818018

    It deos not exclude it either?


    From what i see,little point hiding behind gfa,while actively wanting to collaspe its institutions.....if your good enough to want to collaspe stormont,yous must be good enough to live with consequemces of the action...ie joint rule being on table for negociations



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  • #1801
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818033#Comment_117818033

    Because third countries aren't required to do that for their pets to enter the EU. Before you get yourself all tied up in nonsense again, I suggest you actually read the requirements for entering the EU with your pet dog, then you can point out where I've been inconsistent, thanks.

    https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/carry/animal-plant/index_en.htm




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