4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

29-08-2021 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818931#Comment_117818931

Oh get over yourself. Reading comprehension fail? You've still failed to directly address my points.. while claiming that you have. Which you haven't.

I have not made up anything about your posts, and I have no interest chasing you until you do deal with what was written.. there's no value in doing so.

It's fine. As I said to another poster I tend to ignore posters who make ad hominems/snide remarks, and I will return to ignoring you.

Anne_Widdecombe · 29-08-2021 3:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818942#Comment_117818942

The distinction doesn't change.

Biologically, men/boys cannot become women/girls.

Children have no conception of the social construction gender as adults understand it, let alone understanding the concept of changing pronouns. The only way for that to happen is if these ideas are introduced to children via adults.

Impressionable children, at 4-years old, should not be exposed to this.

When they become teenagers/adults, it's a very different question indeed.

In my view, gender doesn't even exist. It's a personality stamp and nothing more. No need for labels at all.

You can be an effeminate male and you are no less male for being effeminate. What's wrong with the current discussion is that effeminate males are saying that they're not males at all. That's very exclusionary. If anything, the same people should promote that you can be an effeminate male and be proud of it, rather than running away and inventing your own label / or calling yourself a "she".

29-08-2021 3:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818941#Comment_117818941

I could use the same logic for any change in society, or the lack of change. And I'd be right to do so. There is far too much interest in short-term feel-good changes, without considering the long-term effects of those changes.

As for the "positions of conservatives against the majority", where do you get the idea that conservatives are a minority?

Look.. You're shifting away from your OP (and my response), and in any case, it has little to do with this thread. If you want to start up a fresh thread, I'll be perfectly happy to discuss your various questions with you.

LLMMLL · 29-08-2021 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818979#Comment_117818979

I have addressed your point. Your point was that parents must influence kids who request pronouns and I have said that's not true and given the reasoning. Kids know about gender and they know about pronouns being used with gender. Therefore no parental input is needed for them to make the link that if they believe their gender is different to what they have been told then their pronouns are also different.

It 100% addresses your point. You seem to think that someone only addresses your point if they fully agree with you. It's a very egocentric method of debate.

You made up 2 things which I never said and we're on both occasions unable to provide a quote that backed you up. You claimed I "asserted" that the numbers of children requesting pronouns changes was not miniscule. When I asked for a quote to prove this you provided a quote where I said that kids in the past knew about their gender. I Never said a thing about the number.

And the first time I asked you to prove I had said what you claimed with a quote you said "oh I give up" and flounced off.

So you made it up.

I'm very happy for you to ignore my posts as at least I will not have to correct you on making multiple false statements from now on. (3 in a day. Think it's a new record).

LLMMLL · 29-08-2021 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819022#Comment_117819022

Nobody is saying effeminate males are not male.

Anne_Widdecombe · 29-08-2021 3:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819132#Comment_117819132

Trans- isn't just about transitioning from male to female.

Trans- also includes non-binary and others who choose their own gender identity label and/or pronouns. Surgery not required.

LLMMLL · 29-08-2021 3:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819158#Comment_117819158

What does that have to do with effeminate males?

Anne_Widdecombe · 29-08-2021 3:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819176#Comment_117819176

What we've been seeing in recent years is many LGB people self-identifying with their own label/pronoun precisely because they feel that male/masculine and female/feminine does not conform to their identity. Therefore, the pool of who is considered trans- has risen considerably. The same therefore can be applied to children. If adults are fed the idea that their boy may be trans- because they are wearing girls clothing, that can lead to a situation in which authority figures around the child are talking up the possibility as a reality. If 4-year old children go to teachers and display it, teachers are obliged to follow through with it.

LLMMLL · 29-08-2021 3:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819198#Comment_117819198

If someone feels that they are the opposite gender to what was assigned at birth then it's a good thing that schools will respect their pronoun usage.

If they are happy with the pronouns that people have been using for them since birth then the guidance will have no effect.

The vast vast majority of effeminate males I know identify as male and are happy for male pronouns to be used.

This guidance has no effect on that.

The way you're going on your think effeminate males will be forced to use female pronouns.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-08-2021 3:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819022#Comment_117819022

Fair enough.

I'd argue that kids that age know a lot more about gender roles at that age than you think. They're very observant and a lot of their literature still shows mummies and daddies with traditional roles. What they are learning more than before is that the roles are flexible; be that a good thing or a bad thing.

Anne_Widdecombe · 29-08-2021 3:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819215#Comment_117819215

As a thought experiment: if 2, 3, and 4-year olds were actively taught that they could become the opposite sex / change their pronouns, that books contained it, that TV cartoons promoted it etc., that it would have absolutely no effect on those children?

I'd argue that, if the above happened, that many, many, many more children would start to identify as the opposite sex.

And that's the problem: once you start introducing these ideas to children, it can have enormous consequences. And no, this isn't related to homosexuality. You cannot change sexuality at 4-years old for very obvious reasons, but you can change gender - given how malleable the term has become in recent years. You can call yourself whatever label you wish, and invent whatever pronouns you want.

It's an infinitely elastic ideology that has the unfortunate advantage of deliberately making itself unfalsifiable.

LLMMLL · 29-08-2021 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819247#Comment_117819247

It's not really a thought experiment if you just invent the outcome. It's called wild speculation.

It doesn't matter what the outcome of teaching a 2 year old they could change gender would be. That's not what the Scottish are doing.

They are simply respecting requests for pronoun changes and toilet usage.

Anne_Widdecombe · 29-08-2021 4:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819300#Comment_117819300

The point of the thought experiment is to demonstrate that ideas such as gender identity/pronouns can have damaging effects on impressionable children.

ISIS used to teach very young children about beheading by using toys etc. That, too, will have long-term damage because children are impressionable and will absorb whatever authority figures tell them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-08-2021 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819247#Comment_117819247

I'm only debating what is happening, not hypotheticals. Hypotheticals can be used to promote or deny anything.

LLMMLL · 29-08-2021 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819339#Comment_117819339

How about this thought experiment. Imagine we teach 2 year olds they can change gender. This will have no effect on them.

Do you think the above is a good thought experiment?

Or is it me just saying "what if we.did this" then assuming the conclusion will be what I want it to be.

29-08-2021 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818942#Comment_117818942

A male can't be a female. A female can't be a male. A woman can never be a man, a man can never be a woman.

That's biology.

Men, women, boy, girl, male, female are all words that are used to describe the sex of humans.

29-08-2021 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819212#Comment_117819212

You are assigned a sex at birth. Gender used to mean the same as sex until it was deemed to mean a plethora of ways people feel about themselves.

Again I ask, are sex and gender conflated? How many genders are there?

What's a female pronoun? Does that relate to female gender or female sex? Is female a gender?

What is a male? Is a person born with a vagina who feels they shouldn't have, are they male? If so, what's a male pronoun?

29-08-2021 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819693#Comment_117819693

Actually, **** that. You aren't "assigned" a sex at birth.

Your sex is noted.

Not assigned.

Fucking hell, I'm accepting this linguistic gymnastics people are pushing.

DarkJager21 · 29-08-2021 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819727#Comment_117819727

Yep it starts with the lingo and then you are all downhill from there - next thing you’ll be describing normal men and women with that cis bullshit 😂

Gatling · 29-08-2021 6:57pm

3 and 4 years knowledge about gender identity and pronouns and correct use ,

Yeah no they do not understand gender identity and pronouns ,you can tell who posts this stuff have next to no clue about preschool children and what they understand and don't .

We're not talking about teens who have come through primary school and into secondary with basic sex education to more advanced sex education and relationships .

Not children who can't even read a simple book or under numbers ,yes some 4 year olds can count 1-10 but have no understanding of the understanding of the numbers themselves

Anne_Widdecombe · 29-08-2021 7:35pm

Gender used to mean the same as sex. To avoid the awkwardness of the word "sex" in times gone by, they instead used the more harmlessly associated word, "gender".

Now gender means how you feel about yourself / identity, independent of your biological sex.

An unnecessary personality description / label.

And that highly subjective interpretation of gender (again, unfalsifiable) is now being pushed onto 4-year old children.

Children should never be the pawns of a political project; it's enough to make you sick.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-08-2021 8:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819542#Comment_117819542

Yeah, I know how you feel - I didn't ask that.

I asked if this - seeing as you stated you knew the difference - is based on biological sex or gender?

I'm guessing the former, which is fine. They're called transgender and not transbiological sex for that very reason.

29-08-2021 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820445#Comment_117820445

Transgender almost exclusively refers to people who transition from "male" to "female".

What a coincidence.

Tell me how · 29-08-2021 8:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819339#Comment_117819339

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820289#Comment_117820289

It's already been pointed out to you, repeatedly that this is not a 'thought experiment' being pushed on to children but respecting peoples wish to identify as best they feel represents them.

Glad to see you are against children being the pawns of a political project, which isn't happening here, can I ask, do you view anti-vaccine/anti-maskers attending school board meetings all over the US protesting against mask mandates or requirements for vaccinations who claim that their children need to be able to breathe and should not be inflicted with what are tools of a plandemic?

And once again, your insistence that this is a thought experiment (it isn't) so as to equate it with ISIS is fcuking bizzare to be honest. Again, if you want to find comparisons with the ideals of ISIS and groups within western culture surely the most obvious ones are devoutly religious as in fact your real life name sake could be identified as being.

Anne_Widdecombe · 29-08-2021 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820445#Comment_117820445

That's simply not true.

Some transwomen believe they are legitimate women, as legitimate as yourself, whereas others openly admit they are biological men who simply live as women.

So whilst you refer to "transgender", in the real world it refers to biological sex for many people.

Here is one such example, where India Willoughby - a famous transgender presenter, says:

"I'm in here as a woman"

Then she starts shouting, "I am a real woman".

I can't post the link given my limited number of posts, but it was when she appeared on Big Brother.

Whereas other transgender women, such as Blaire White, argue that they are biological men who live life as women.

Annasopra · 29-08-2021 8:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817514#Comment_117817514

I cant really take any of your claims seriously at all when you don't even know what the discussion is actually about; (there is pretty much nothing in this discussion about children making decisions regarding their sexuality)

LLMMLL · 29-08-2021 9:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820136#Comment_117820136

Nobody has claimed adult and child understanding are the same. And they don't have to be.

As for your numbers example it's nonsense. If a.child.can count to ten and can tell what number of objects you put in front of them then that child has already grasped the most important aspect of number.

In fact, ask an adult to explain what "three" means and they won't have a clue.

Anne_Widdecombe · 29-08-2021 9:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820744#Comment_117820744

Three means one more than two. Every adult knows that.

To pretend that most do not is perhaps the worst argument I've ever read on Boards.ie.

LLMMLL · 29-08-2021 9:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820785#Comment_117820785

One what more than two?

Gatling · 29-08-2021 10:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820744#Comment_117820744

But they don't , but yet you claim they understand gender identity and correct pronouns , pretty obvious that you have no experience with young children especially 2 years +

But somehow adults couldn't explain what three is .🤣🤣🤣🤣

4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

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