4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

Nothing. It's the kids own testimony. All of your scenarios are possible.

Disingenuous and you know it.

Unless you believe that there are lots of people out there who'll go, "No Timmy, I saw you playing with a Barbie, your name is now Sarah and you must answer to it".

There aren't. This is the same moral panic nonsense that has caused backwards eastern European states to start outlawing lessons that being gay is OK.

Seriously, the whole argument for the last 3 days has boiled down to, "There are kids now who think being trans is trendy and they're all doing it".

Exactly the same argument was used against gay people. The notion that making it OK to be gay, would lead to rush on young people to be gay because it's cool. It's the last gasp of the dinosaur.

Young people are not going to "choose" to change gender, for exactly the same reason that you won't. They don't choose to be gay, for the same reason that you don't choose to be gay. We've been treating gay people - in an educational context at least - as equals for 15-20 years now. And there hasn't been this sudden shift where all young people are now gay because it's cool. It's a moral panic, invented by dinosaurs.

This boils down to, "When a young person expresses a desire to have their self-image respected, you do that".

And yet, it's sad and disturbing that so many adults seem to think that children need to be forced into line, forced to conform, no matter the cost.

Sorry but the last line in your post comes off far more disingenuous than anything else I've seen in this thread. Nobody has been trying to force children into line one way or the other. To try to reduce the side of the argument you disagree with down to that is bad form.

There's nothing wrong with gently encouraging a child to embrace their biological sex. That doesn't mean that you have to force them to conform to gender stereotypes. Keep the dialogue open, if they truly are trans it's not just going to go away.

I would assume anyone would want to be sure that their child is trans before starting them on that difficult journey (emphasis on their).

I do because you need to be kept on point. Case in point: you blatantly lied when you said i was the doing the forcing and now completely ignored the request for proof.

And you are forcing a child who questions to to stick to the traditional gender. It's been the backbone of your stance all along. You even said you'd take a kid out of school to do so!

Case closed , I've proven my point: you are the one doing the forcing and then lying about me doing it.

In a similar vein of 'the exact same thing was said of gay people' it is remarkable how trans advocacy are saying and doing the exact same gay things as well.

On a trivial level they have appropriated the word 'queer' as in queergender. They now 'come out of the closet' and have become more 'glamorous and fabulous' adopting all that colourful stuff when in the 80's 90's that wasn't their look at all, because back then trans women would typically style themselves as conservative women and look something like a female politician or a school headmistress with a bob haircut and a female style suit. So there is certainly a rebranding of the look and feel of the transgender scene that looks remarkably the same as the gay scene. I have no doubt this is intentional and not just current fashion threads.

Less trivially this 'I knew at age 4' thing seems to be popping up all the time now in very much the same way parents of gay children used to say when that issue was discussed more often, that they knew or suspected their child was gay at age 3. I used to hear that all the time. The point was of course made to give weight to the argument that gay people were 'born this way'. Of course it's not exactly the same as trans people are now saying they knew themselves they were trans at 3+1, and 4 has become a trend. I don't think it really works though because the younger one says they feel they are in the wrong body the more likely it is they are wrong, not more likely they are right, imo.

So it would seem trans advocacy use pro gay-like arguments when it suits them so one can't be surprised when they get the same anti gay-like argument's back. But isn't it incredibly convenient to be able to say 'they said that about gays'. Suspiciously convenient. "Gays have got their rights - why don't we have ours', a quote from an interview with a transgender person I saw on the BBC website. It's doesn't make any sense whatsoever to say gays have their rights we should have the same, when the specific rights they are asking for are completely different. It's like saying women have got their abortion rights so we should have our transgender rights.

Now to your comment about influencing people to be transgender, I have observed a marked rise in gay people identifying as trans in recent years. Non-binary usually, on social media and particularly gay dating apps. So I wondered if any straight people are equally coming out as non-binary and found this...

https://www.insider.com/9-celebrities-who-identify-as-gender-non-binary-2019-6

So there you have a list of 14 celebrities who came out as either trans/non-binary/gender-fluid, and after looking at their wiki pages, 13 of them were some variety of homosexual to begin with, most infamously Sam Smith and Ellen Paige.

My point is that there absolutely is a trend of gay people being influenced to come out as some variety of trans where they wouldn't have dreamt of it otherwise. I am certain about this. And again isn't it so convenient that there you have a trend that further weaves together the gay and trans scenes.

I'm not creating a moral panic, I'm simply reporting what I see and I intend to report what I see to as many people as I can if ever the subject comes up in conversation, and here of course.

Not sure how much you care about LGBT people if you're picking noted raging homophobe Anne Widdecombe as your boards persona.

Yes it does throw up all kind of ludicrous stuff doesn't it.

Speaking of ludicrous - reminds me of this story and not surprisingly the BBC thought to do a report on it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-53936529

So this trans man Chiyo is competing in Mr Gay UK, a beauty pageant for gay men. Chiyo's angle is that he's "breaking down the barrier's" of what's considered to be male beauty, specifically in the gay mens world.

After all the campaigning for gay rights which is *100% about men finding men's bodies sexually attractive, someone from the trans community suggests this is all wrong, attitudes must be changed. That a gay man would be so narrow minded as to be only attracted to typical male form is now a backward attitude. Have you ever heard anything as ludicrous as that and doubly so that it's only in relatively recently times that men being sexually attracted to men has become socially accepted. On the ludicrous richter scale that one would be hard to surpass.

*same for women of course

Some children are aware that their gender, or how their gender feels to them, is not in alignment with what they expect or is expected of them.

This has always been the case.

What is your proposal in this situation?

Again tho, what is your proposal for those who do understand their gender to be different?

Just keep moving to different areas that don't have trans people or something?

Regardless if how small a number of trans people you think there are, they do exist, but you don't want anyone to even learn about them.

I didn't much care for advanced mathematics at school, but I couldn't just magic it away.

You want to move schools?