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4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh right.

    Yes, I would not want my child to be in a school where they are told that they can choose to change from a boy to a girl if they want.

    That's not nearly the same as "not wanting to learn"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's nothing to do with me not liking the statement. It's just simply not true.

    The child should be given a basic biology lesson and it to be explained at an age appropriate level that they are a girl and although they may feel like they are a boy, they aren't.

    They should be made aware that many people feel differently about who they are but there are certain inalienable factors to their body which determines that they are a little girl.

    They should be reminded that just because they are a girl, they can still take part in what was traditional "boy" activities and that boys and girls have the same opportunities, but they have to know they are still a little girl.

    Why are you sticking to binary definitions?

    Can you tell me how many genders there are?



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    I've been waiting for that answer for some time now.

    Does anyone know the answer to the question of how many genders there are?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Who is protecting it? Society has been trying to change the perception regarding homosexuality and the public displays of that sexuality for my whole adult life.. and while there have been improvements, especially on the legal side of things, a lot of other aspects haven't changed much. It takes time for people to catch up to social change, with the diehards dying off, or people becoming personally exposed to homosexuality and realising it's not all that bad. A government initiative telling us to accept something doesn't mean that people are going to change their conditioned biases...

    Km, I'm Bisexual, having had both male and female partners, and know what it's like in both worlds. I also know the suspicion/biases that many Gay/Lesbians have towards bisexuals. It takes time for change to take effect and to drip down the chain of beliefs.

    In any case, to be clear, which status quo are we talking about here? Previously the status quo was a comment about Trans people.., the above quote refers to gay people.. and they're not the same thing. There can be some crossover but one is about sexuality and the other is about gender perceptions. The vast majority of my male partners or homosexual friends are not aiming to change their gender or seek any kind of physical change. They're men who like being men, and are attracted sexually to other men.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Your post made me wonder... what is a boy to someone who has never been a boy before, and whose only experiences of gender is that as a girl? Where would they find information to frame such an understanding, and would it be accurate? Cause we all know how accurate stereotypes are.. 😂

    Wouldn't it be best to confirm that someone is sure of what they feel/think before calling them a "Trans kid", ensuring that they're not simply confused about what that gender entails, and what their options are?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 41,074 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Basically this is saying trans people don't exist 🙄

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭bewareofthedog


    The fact that topics like this are even debated and defended let alone implemented shows how much of a stranglehold the inmates have over the asylum. It's cloud cuckoo land stuff. Toddlers should be taught not to eat crayons and how to use the toilet instead of having their minds poisoned by a twisted far left agenda.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,074 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    What are you on about? This is not about 4 year olds deciding the certitude of whether they are trans or not

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    It wasn't I who selected 14 people who came out as non-binary that are all homosexual bar one.

    As for having opinions about things that don't affect me in the slightest, I want 'gay pride' back, I want Mr Gay UK to be a gay cis male, and I don't want the gay demographic to be associated with transgender controversies, because it affects my demographic NEGATIVELY, especially in counties where homosexuality isn't even accepted yet like those of eastern Europe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Again you're ignoring the actual Scottish proposals and talking about stuff you've made up.

    Nobody has said that a child who wishes to use different pronouns is certain to be trans and must continue using the pronouns for all time.

    Letting the children grow up and decide for themselves is exactly what this guidance allows. It just doesn't try and distress them in the meantime.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    Ditto, it is actively damaging to the "traditional" gay community.

    Just like you cannot have transwomen occupying the spaces of the Olympic women's division, you cannot have transmen occupying spaces that "traditional" gay men otherwise occupied.

    It's harming the LGBT community (of which I am a member) and this move to extend the ideology to 4-year olds, is the start of it.

    Once this "harmless" step is accepted, it'll move onto the next phase - and the next, and the next after that.

    The idea that the movement stops at this phase is for the birds, it really is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    "Nobody has said that a child who wishes to use different pronouns is certain to be trans and must continue using the pronouns for all time"

    3/4 year olds do not use pronouns or speak about using pronouns ,

    You would have to live on another planet and in a different dimension to believe that .....


    Seriously some people have no concept of young children or what they actually think on a daily basis .

    Pronouns in preschoolers 🤣🤣🤣🤣



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Anyone who favours the Scottish proposal going to declare how many genders there are?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The idea that the movement stops at this phase is for the birds, it really is.

    The funny/interesting thing is how often this is used an excuse though. It's not as if we didn't hear the exact same thing when the Trans debate first started in the US, and we were all looking at Americans as being completely nutty to tolerate this nonsense, and we even thought that common sense would prevent it becoming established in Europe except for an extreme minority. Now, it's here and not just here but encouraged to expand in scope... even to the point of people defending the application of the theory on to children. To young children ffs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    I'm sickened by it.

    In the UK, Stonewall, a hitherto respected organization that defended the rights of gay people, now refer to homosexuality as "same-gender attracted".

    This is why I don't identify as a member of the LGBT community anymore. This is sexual-gender extremism; a religion of identity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    I'm glad the world is changing ☺️

    I kept it binary to try and keep it simple so that you could focus on the question posed. Thank you for answering, it really is useful to try and understand people.

    Trans people exist. It's basic biology. It's simply not true to say otherwise. Your system has been in place for a long time. It hasn't had much success.


    How many genders? I suspect you are aware that there is varying opinions on this and the science hasn't reached a strong consensus as yet. The mental model that works for me is that gender is on a spectrum. And similar to sexuality, It's rate that someone is 100pc at the extreme end of such a spectrum for their entire life (although, many people do a reasonable job of pretending they are!)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    I agree, some people definitely don't.


    🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 (5 smileys, count em!)



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    The problem with that spectrum argument is that no one person occupies a position of 100% masculinity or 100% femininity, therefore we are all transgender to some degree.

    It's an obvious fallacious argument. Actually, it's embarrassing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    I don't think it's a problem at all?

    You seem to think there is a fallacy there, now that is embarrassing Indeed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Also, if people could call our their previous usernames it would help a lot to remember who I've had the same discussions with over and over.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Well considering the child in question was entirely fabricated for the purposes of illustration, I'm sure no one would mind the term "trans kid".

    But yes, you do have a point, which is exactly why it's important to have a language around this and the ability to discuss such matters, which is why the awareness in schools is even more important.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've only ever had one username on boards. Does that help to validate my posts?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,640 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords



    Mod - we are getting quite far off the topic of the Scottish proposals and the thread is becoming a free for all on trans rights and that is not it's purpose. The quoted post above is a suitable example.

    Given that there have been mod notes already on this thread I'll say this one last time, stick to the topic of the thread



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    I know.. just in general we get a lot of brand new posters on these threads but I guess this isn't the place for me to raise this point.

    Apologies.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, sorry... I've agreed with many of your posts so far but that's not what Transgender is about. Being Trans is about being different from what someone was originally. Oh, sure, apparently the original choice was made for them, or assigned to them, but they all started with one gender and desired to change to another different one, or none at all.

    We are all masculine and feminine in our traits and behaviors, but that doesn't mean that we are all male and female.

    Being either male or female carries a history of experience, learning, and adaptation within that persons environment, but also the experience of the body we have. The sexual organs that we live with throughout our lives. And while it is possible to change your body, and sexual organs (to a degree), the same can't be said for the previous years of experience as a given gender, and the lack of genuine firsthand knowledge of what it's like to be another gender. I've cross-dressed. I've had sex with men, women, and people who had physically transitioned, both partially and fully. But I don't know what it's like to be a girl or a woman. I'll never have to deal with pms, or a host of other biological experiences that females do, and that need to adjust my life accordingly. Nor will I know what it's like to be an target for sexual/physical attraction the way women do, because it's a very different experience for a man vs a woman, due to the society that has developed over time. Just as the vast majority of women will never understand the nuance of masculine culture throughout school, and into our adulthood, with the often direct physical communication, but also the ways we learn to manage that communication.

    A woman could spend all her life surrounded by men, adopt their behaviors and mannerisms. Even understand their way of living, and the application of logic the same as the men, but she would still be a woman, driven by biological imperatives, and her mind/thought process would be different, due to her own unique experiences.. through the lens of being a woman... Her feelings and emotions would be different from men, due to the differences in testosterone and all manner of other physical considerations, not least by being a different body type and typically, less physically dense as men. It all matters because it shapes how we perceive and interact with the world. Regardless of what we want...

    The point is that we are not all transgender. I've never wanted to be a woman. Regardless of being sexually attracted to men (and women), I've never wanted to be a woman. Nor behave as one. Or think as one. It doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. My emotional ability is not tied to my gender. I can be patient, sympathetic, empathize, whatever... and have solid emotional intelligence, because as with most things, the idea that women have some greater capacity is a stereotype that's convenient for people to continue.. but it's not specific to a particular gender...

    Masculine and feminine are simply aspects (adjectives) of behavior and thought... but they're not genders in themselves. That's why we use the terms male and female. Man and woman. Girl and boy. This trans debate is messing up language too much.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Except, we've long had such language in schools. The presence of the Trans debate touches everyone, and I can't imagine any teacher not being aware of the possibility that a person might feel that way. It's not as if this hasn't been shot down, with a no-speech ban placed in secondary or third level schools. It's been in secondary schools in the UK and the US for close to a decade now...

    However, I'm very skeptical of this manifesting in children aged 5 years old, considering what gender represents. I suspect this is adult considerations being projected on to children. The thing is... considering the posters who have sought to defend this proposal, where are the statistics being presented to show the need for it? Where are all these children who do need this special attention?

    More likely this is the extension of the same debate about boys playing with tanks, and girls playing with dolls... and the desire by those involved to remain relevant.. and the trans issue continues to be big news for some.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sorry, your post didn't show up until I refreshed after I'd posted my own. I'll cut it back from here on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Another thing you have in common with our dear departed friend EskimoHunt. He also was a gay man who continuously said he did not identify as LGBT.

    For two entirely different people you have identical opinions and backstory.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




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