4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

31-08-2021 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826722#Comment_117826722

That’s not a link to the literature. That’s a lot of flimflam. You said that there’s a lot of evidence that pre pubescent children “knew” their gender at age 4, which is what we are talking about.

Gatling · 31-08-2021 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826356#Comment_117826356

Take apart posts ,no pointing out the relevant part I chose to discuss

(or in some utterly non relevance) in most cases .

If answers have got the the state I don't know find a search engine , or blaming media .

It's a bit but ,but ,but

As I have said several times you have no real knowledge of preschool aged children and their wants when it comes to preferred pronouns ,

In a preschool the children are called by their names by the room leaders or keyworkers they are not asked about their preferred pronouns or their gender identity political leanings ,

They get asked about their parents , siblings and pets if any ..the weather today ,

There 2.5 years up to 4 year olds for crying out loud

31-08-2021 11:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826455#Comment_117826455

😆

You're right. I should have said it's all a load of they. 👫🤹🤸🤾👀

Repo101 · 31-08-2021 11:40am

In 15-20 years these kids will be suing their parents and the state for allowing state-sponsored child abuse. A four year old should not be subjected to this nonsense, nor should anyone who is not an adult.

km991148 · 31-08-2021 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826919#Comment_117826919

Because I disagree with you, do not presume to know my background regarding children of any age (or in fact any topic, as you often do). I think it would be really helpful to try and see beyond your assumptions (although, people who show such ignorance often don't surprise me).

km991148 · 31-08-2021 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827036#Comment_117827036

Or maybe, just maybe, there will be a healthier generation that is more aware of others and not dealing with the psychological harm caused by suppressing feelings that relate to such a core part of their identity - thats why the guidance is good (imo).

km991148 · 31-08-2021 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826817#Comment_117826817

To address your last sentence there (quoting..arghgh!) I've said all I wan on the children part and I'm about done with this thread as its getting a touch boring.

My experience of the LGBT community and specifically the trans communities that I have been part of has been entirely different - there is no accusation that you are wrong there btw (just to be clear!) - just stating what I have experienced (and I havent met anyone in those communities outside of twitter that has been aggressive at all). I know few people that don't at least take hormones (or do you not count that as "physical transitioning")?

I'd love to discuss further the statement you make judging the superficial nature of some - just even to clarify that a bit - but its off topic and they wont reopen the Gender Identity thread.

km991148 · 31-08-2021 11:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826884#Comment_117826884

yeah no sh!t it's not a link - I said if I could be bothered I will help you out - I am revoking that offer because my time is important to me.

I assume you will take that to mean no evidence (your medal for winning the internet will follow shortly!) - but really its because you are too lazy to even have a cursory glance.

31-08-2021 11:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827055#Comment_117827055

I would wager there is a an almost zero percent chance of that being the outcome.

km991148 · 31-08-2021 12:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827144#Comment_117827144

It's what happens now (in the system you want to protect) - so if we do nothing then its a bit of a silly bet, isn't it?

But sure we can go round and round on this all day, there have been (unusually!) some interesting topics raised and I wish we had a more general thread to discus, but for me the monotony of this on is a bit much - see you all next time there is some triggering Daily Mail article!

Anne_Widdecombe · 31-08-2021 12:05pm

When you read about the entirety of what's included in this legislation, it becomes even more appalling.

Teachers asking 4-year olds what name and pronouns they want to use?

Including transgender characters in reading material and lessons?

Suggesting that children can "at any age" come out as transgender?

I just cannot understand how people can get behind this. All it can possibly to, in total, is to seed confusion among young children and, what's worse, to do so without parental consent.

This is a twisted form of state-sponsored indoctrination.

Children as young as four will be able to change their name and gender at school without their parents’ consent under new LGBT inclusivity guidelines drawn up by the Scottish Government.

A 70-page document, issued to schools north of the border on Thursday, calls on teachers not to question pupils if they say that they want to transition to live as a boy or a girl and to instead ask them for their new name and pronouns.

The controversial guidance claims that it is possible to “come out” as transgender “at any age” and that the views of young people should be respected if they do not want their parents to be informed.

Scotland’s schools have also been told that trans pupils should be able to use whatever lavatory or changing room they choose, to develop “gender neutral” uniform options, and to include transgender characters and role models in reading material and lessons.

One eyed Jack · 31-08-2021 12:07pm

Posters here keep referring to what four year olds do or don’t know and all the rest of it, which has very little really to do with the guidelines released by the Scottish DOE which will only apply to a limited number of schools in Scotland. It’s guidance for teachers and staff, nothing to do with the curriculum, about the best approach to provide care for children who are transgender.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-58186268

Similar, not identical, but similar guidelines have already existed in Irish schools for some years now -

https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/Being-LGBT-in-School.pdf

31-08-2021 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827055#Comment_117827055

Except there's little to no evidence to support such an assumption, when the opposite is pretty well recorded. The downsides to gender change and trans transitioning are pretty clear. The confusion due to the transition, the place of the person in society, and the emotional rollercoaster for those who actually commit to hormonal change, are well recorded... but many people prefer to focus on the wishful thinking that it will be different for them. And it could be, however, neither gender change or actual transitions are easy processes/states to exist in within western society.

Children need a stable environment to grow up in. That's generally the objective in any schooling. To provide a safe environment where they can grow into their potential, and help them along the way. But there is nothing stable about gender change. There's nothing stable about the trans movement.

I could understand this desire to provide for children to be aware of gender change and be able to do so themselves, if we knew of solid benefits in doing so. If mainstream society, had already accepted transition, and gender change (which it doesn't), if we had decades of research and evidence to show how happy people who changed gender or transitioned were (which we don't).

But for now, it seems like a badly thought out initiative without any consideration to how it will affect these children over time, and what kind of world they'll be entering...

LLMMLL · 31-08-2021 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826044#Comment_117826044

Ah here from the poster who thinks kids can't use pronouns...

km991148 · 31-08-2021 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827203#Comment_117827203

"Seems badly thought out to you".

However it also seems there are some contradictions in the other stuff you wrote - society wont accept, but we wont change anything etc.

My statement about the harm caused is based in evidence (papers I have read AND anecdotal, which doesn't mean anything to others, except to me because I listened to people and I chose to believe them as well as other experiences). There is research showing this as well as countless tales of people who knew from a very young age and had to suppress it.

But again - you don't see that, I do, so we go round in circles again, I really am stepping off of this - I have a ton of real stuff to do anyway lol

km991148 · 31-08-2021 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827183#Comment_117827183

Could you pull some of the sources from this from the article, or post the whole thing? - I wouldn't wipe my arse with that rag, never mind subscribe to it.

31-08-2021 12:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827161#Comment_117827161

I'm sure people would be more willing to engage with you in a productive manner if you didn't treat people who disagreed with you so condescendingly.

But fair enough, I agree we are all chasing our tails and without scope to talk more broadly, we are hamstrung to repeat ourselves.

LLMMLL · 31-08-2021 12:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827183#Comment_117827183

It's called progress and it's great to see. Hope it becomes more widely adopted.

km991148 · 31-08-2021 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827306#Comment_117827306

There was no condescension? I am only stating that if continue with what we do now, and expect the different results then I'll for sure take the bet - because its unlikely the results will change.

I have been respectful and given space to your opinions, even if I disagree with a lot of them. I cannot say I have received the same courtesy from some on here.

31-08-2021 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827268#Comment_117827268

Your evidence remains anecdotal.

Anne_Widdecombe · 31-08-2021 12:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827313#Comment_117827313

It's the opposite; it's 100% regressive.

LLMMLL · 31-08-2021 12:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827359#Comment_117827359

What's it regressing to? Doesn't feel like anything from my childhood...

km991148 · 31-08-2021 12:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827340#Comment_117827340

again, no **** that MY evidence is anecdotal! There is evidence out there (I even offered to help you until you started getting a bit thick about it!) - you can chose to look or not - I don't really care tbh. I can tell you another anecdote about how I have read papers on the subject - but until you DYOR then you wont believe me.

It has to be said tho - another boring aspect of such conversations is the attempts to cause subterfuge and disarray by picking apart every little part until there is little merit discussing the topic at hand. I assume people are discussing things in good faith. I know I do. The ones that demand every single point be proven (who themselves, strangely, don't feel they need to do the same, or don't even request agreeing posters do the same) seem to be of a different mindset.

km991148 · 31-08-2021 12:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827367#Comment_117827367

Nor mine.. but it does feel different for some people's childhood and I guess for them its regression. Oh why must we change, oh why dammit!

Anne_Widdecombe · 31-08-2021 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827398#Comment_117827398

"Change" isn't always good.

This case is one such example. Poisoning the minds of children, no less.

The fact that parental consent is tossed out the window illustrates how this is nothing more than state-sponsored indoctrination.

LLMMLL · 31-08-2021 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827398#Comment_117827398

I don't think they understand what regressive means.

31-08-2021 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827338#Comment_117827338

I wasn't specifically talking about your responses to me.

In think we have managed to talk as respectfully to each other as is possible considering how at odds our outlooks are.

Your interactions with others are a little less so. I am aware its a two way street though

LLMMLL · 31-08-2021 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827418#Comment_117827418

Change isn't always good. Agreed.

This change is good though.

The only poison is those who want to force children to use pronouns that make them unhappy.

31-08-2021 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117827313#Comment_117827313

Only if you want to "progress" to a society where there are absolutely no difference between men and women and definitions mean nothing.

Not somewhere I want to go.

Be careful what you wish for. I don't think it would be the liberal utopia you yearn for.

31-08-2021 12:49pm

I'd bet my house that the vast majority that are pro these new guidelines don't have children themselves.

4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

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