4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-09-2021 1:41am

Delete, waited too long

LLMMLL · 01-09-2021 2:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830406#Comment_117830406

Nobody has said that a boy playing with girls toys is a girl. That's all in your head. No point responding to the rest of your post as it's all based on the fabricated idea that TRAs think that anyone who violates gender stereotypes is trans. We don't.

01-09-2021 7:37am

As a t.r.a LLMLL, how many genders do you think there are? What constitutes a gender? Are all genders equally valid?

archfi · 01-09-2021 8:42am

Mermaids UK had as one of their pillars of 'knowing' a child is gender dysphoric (or just the umbrella term 'trans'), playing with the opposite sexes toys, wanting to try on/dress as the opposite sex. Nice and progressive...yup

They also pushed the stupendously ridiculous theory as fact that people are 'born in the wrong body' - that is until their 'no debate' thought terminating cliche ridden guidances became more widely public (ie, the media began to wake up/do their job and report on it and the govt abandoned the easy feelgood flags and baubles) Sunlight is always bad for guidance and policy ringfenced within an ideological wall.

There is no doubt the Scottish guidance was written by affiliates of Mermaids UK and StonewallUK only.

01-09-2021 9:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830858#Comment_117830858

Excellent post.

I don't agree with you, but now I can understand where you're coming from.

The difference, I suppose, is that I feel that any increase in numbers of children claiming gender change comes from adult intervention. That others are projecting their own agendas, interests, etc on to children, and I don't believe it should be encouraged/accepted over here. (as opposed to the US which has been playing with various radical ideas for decades)

As for general acceptance of trans issues, err... honestly... while I have nothing against individuals, I really don't like what the trans movement represents. It's clunky, vague, changeable, a mishmash of ideas and while some of the ideas are harmless, others are dodgy in the extreme. And yet, to accept one, means the acceptance of the other. So.. no... I honestly don't see mainstream society accepting the trans situation, and if anything, I fully expect to see a backlash against what we've had so far.

LLMMLL · 01-09-2021 11:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831371#Comment_117831371

https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/the-toys-and-clothing-question/

Here they say that playing with particular toys does NOT make a child trans.

Which is what I said.

So it is only Anne/eskimohunt who is saying this.

archfi · 01-09-2021 1:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117832231#Comment_117832231

They say that now which is what I said, that wasn't the case until parts of the British media and the govt there finally grew a pair and said WTF which seriously threatened the rejection of any of their input into any guidance (at least in England and Wales)

LLMMLL · 01-09-2021 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117832583#Comment_117832583

So you agree that nobody is saying that playing with a certain kind of toy makes a child trans.

Great.

archfi · 01-09-2021 1:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117832603#Comment_117832603

So you agree that was their modus operandi until they were staring at a loss of funds and influence. Grand.

I wonder what did they do with all those Barbie->GI Joe diagrams they used for years when 'training' govt depts, regulators, educators, police, companies.

LLMMLL · 01-09-2021 1:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117832632#Comment_117832632

I don't agree as I havent seen the materials.

Either way it's isrrelevant.

Nobody says that playing with a certain kind of toy makes you trans.

AllForIt · 01-09-2021 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831581#Comment_117831581

Yes it was a good one to be fair. I know a long post is good if I don't scroll onto the next one half way though😆

But like you I don't agree. I don't agree that the rise in people coming out as gender-fluid and non-binary is due to more general awareness...I think it's due to the fact that we now have an lgbt+ scene rather than a gay scene that is being all the time manufactured and rebranded. As I said before I think gay men particularly are being influenced by gay dating apps/celebs/social media. And even worse I think it's an outcome some people want as I've alluded to before.

Just this morning I was listening to a conversation about conspiracy theorists and a view expressed is that the people in that world get a feeling of belonging in that group via whatever websites they use. And I think the same thing is going on here. Identifying yourself as something makes you stand out and get attention you may not otherwise get. I know of people who go to every pride event in the country as they can. That's not activism, that's just socializing, where one gets a feeling of belonging. Nothing wrong with that but there is you go to extremes to do it.

The gay scene itself was never the homogeneous gay scene on might thing it is. It's fragmented into whose that are effeminate, the gym (muscle mary) scene, the more fashionable types, and then the lesbian scene is equally fragmented into types. You wouldn't get into some gay nightclubs in London if you didn't look the part. So as in general society you have classes who have their little gripes against one another. But the point is some people need their own angle if they want to stand out so as not to feel ignored. Any angle will do. I think what people really yearn for is to have their personality accepted rather than their sexual orientation or gender.

On what might seem like a trivial point but OEJ did bring it up, the It's Raining Men song had a gay version of it covered a long time ago and that's why someone though it a good idea to do a trans version. Because you know the two issues are basically the same thing, aren't they.

Gatling · 01-09-2021 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117832648#Comment_117832648

Yes you have the Barbie doll gijoe information sheet has been all of these threads where do you think the idea gender is a broad spectrum came from that posters regularly repeat ...

Simon would be proud of that 🙂

Gatling · 01-09-2021 2:16pm

@AllForIt

Think about the idea that if two men or women in in a relationship and one of either of couples decided that they were now trans one man is now with a woman and vice versa but do they now become straight couples . even though they are both same sex couples

01-09-2021 2:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117832741#Comment_117832741

I get what you say about different groups. There's also different cultures when you meet gay people, such as growing up gay in China vs being an Chinese man being gay in the west... and that affects both their behavior, but also who they connect with. People are generally tribal, and when you feel different, you tend to align with others who match your own situation. And the gay scene is very tribal, with a wide range of biases and prejudices.

I'd say there's more people "coming out" as gender-fluid or non-binary because there is little to no cost involved. It's very difficult to take back coming out as gay, because it's the kind of information that is gossiped and spread about, attaching itself to your reputation.. however with a lot of the Trans stuff out there, there is no commitment and/or cost involved, and it's very easy to reverse. Oh you might get a few eyebrows raised, but the whole point of gender change is to decrease the importance of a set gender. It's different for those who have physically transitioned, but honestly, I've met too many people who have regretted doing so, or have stopped halfway through to reassess what they're doing. Seems to me that there's a lot of negatives becoming known but the people who are interested in transitioning think that it will be different for them. And it might be. Maybe.

The problem is when this is applied to children. There is a cost involved. For adults, it's relatively easy for them to revert to being male if they previously wanted to be female, because they have the past experience, and knowledge. But what will children who have changed gender do five or ten years later, if they figure out it was the wrong decision? They won't have that past experience, and worse yet, will face condemnation from pro-trans people for betraying the cause. And anyone who claims there is no such cause, or similar attitudes, hasn't experienced the more hardline/dedicated sides of the LGBT community.

LLMMLL · 01-09-2021 3:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117832918#Comment_117832918

If there's a point in this post I can't find it.

Anne_Widdecombe · 01-09-2021 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117833537#Comment_117833537

The reality of the situation, as it appears to me at least, is that moves such as this will succeed.

No matter what the pushback, I think this kind of movement of introducing trans- as early as possible to children, cannot be stopped because those in charge in Scotland and elsewhere are pushing for it. The ordinary person on the street is opposed to it, but they aren't sufficiently represented in corridors of power (at least in large parts of the West). And given how aggressive the trans- lobby has become, I'm absolutely convinced things are going to get far worse before they get better.

km991148 · 01-09-2021 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117832741#Comment_117832741

II think you are bang on with this

"Just this morning I was listening to a conversation about conspiracy theorists and a view expressed is that the people in that world get a feeling of belonging in that group via whatever websites they use. And I think the same thing is going on here"

But the conspiracy is the narrative being pushed that more people are being encouraged to be trans...

Gatling · 01-09-2021 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117833537#Comment_117833537

You said you didn't see the documents , which is not True

Gatling · 01-09-2021 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117833591#Comment_117833591

It can be stopped ,the problem arises when the likes of the so called trans charity is allowed access to schools and policy makers ,

Were not talking about qualified and experienced people were taking about a 4 parents of children at the time who went from sitting at a table drinking tea to suddenly being labelled as experts in all things trans ,while making a lot of money off it ,

It's a sham like taviststock , even recently the mermaids were sueing different groups in court to stop the others groups from being recognised as charities , because they don't subscribe to mermaids agenda .

It's a power trip

01-09-2021 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117833726#Comment_117833726

But the conspiracy is the narrative being pushed that more people are being encouraged to be trans...

Except the reality is that people are being encouraged to become trans... it's one of the reasons that the term "trans" covers so many different "types" and opinions. We live in a world of social media and marketing. As such those who advocate Trans as being a natural and preferable state, will be encouraging others to adopt it.

Its one of my biggest objections to this gender change idea for children, because as I said to OEJ, to ensure that no child is hiding their desire to change their own gender, would require that all children be introduced to the concepts involved, and that the choice to change their gender is acceptable and there's nothing wrong with it. Which, in turn, because it's said in a way not to alienate those who do want to change, it's promoting it to children who had no prior intention of changing.

It's not a conspiracy theory to believe that advocates and groups dedicated to the Trans movement would be seeking others to join them. It's basic common sense, because that's what all movements do.. especially since that advertising/promotion increases the likelihood of the overall trans movement being accepted by mainstream society.. not just by some politicians and media groups.

01-09-2021 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117833748#Comment_117833748

You're never going to get the answer/response you want.

LLMMLL · 01-09-2021 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117833748#Comment_117833748

What?

LLMMLL · 01-09-2021 5:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117833791#Comment_117833791

Soooo you don't think it's bizarre that someone is claiming they know I've seen a niche document which hasn't been posted in the thread (or the previous thread for that matter).

Lets turn it around. Suppose I claim I know you've seen a particular doc. How would you respond?

seamus · 01-09-2021 5:02pm

@Anne_Widdecombe wrote:

The ordinary person on the street is opposed to it, but they aren't sufficiently represented in corridors of power (at least in large parts of the West).

L.O.Fvcking.L.

You live in a democracy. By definition, the "ordinary person on the street" is sufficiently represented.

Otherwise your point is that a global network of individuals on the fringe of society and representing less than 1% of the population have infiltrated government at all levels in a bid to corrupt the minds of children. And the other 99% are opposed to it, but powerless to stop it. It's insane.

The reason these laws go through is because governments are following the advice of the experts in this area, highlighted by the various lobby groups, to improve the environments in which all children grow up.

Your gut feeling on it is irrelevant. You haven't a breeze what you're actually talking about. The experts in this area tell us that you are wrong. The world is not being led astray; you are just out of touch.

01-09-2021 5:39pm

My main worry would be the imposition of regressive gender stereotypes on kids. 4-year-old told me he wished he was born a girl the other day, and when I asked him why he told me it was because girls are super kind. It gave me an opportunity to sit him down and tell him that boys can be just as kind as girl and girls can be just as kind as boys, and steer him away from backward stereotypes.

I imagine that a person who has faith in gender ideology would have faltered with that situation. And at least some of the more devoted acolytes would have been delighted to hear a child say they wished they were the opposite gender, and would have had them picking out a new name in no time.

I don't want those people teaching their doctrine to my kids any more than I would want extremist adherents to any other sort of superstitious nonsense teaching it to them them. The world is confusing enough for children without having them try to wrap their minds around nebulous and ever-changing ideas about inner identity.

km991148 · 01-09-2021 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117833979#Comment_117833979

RE your second paragraph and how they would handle the 4 year old (great timing that it just happened the other day!).

I strongly believe those people that you outline would do the exact same thing (I myself probably fit your definition and I would do that with my kids or those that have been in my care). I find it as mad as the microchips in vaccines stuff that people are going about transing kids - its just so far flung from reality.

As you said yourself - it really is all in your imagination.

01-09-2021 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834073#Comment_117834073

I mean I was never expecting you to agree with me. I think a minority of the most extreme TRAs would absolutely jump at the chance of "affirming" a young child. I think some parents have done that, too.

You disagree? As expected. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

LLMMLL · 01-09-2021 6:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834128#Comment_117834128

If you only believe a minority of the most extreme TRAs (itself a minority) would push a kid into thinking they were trans what difference does the guidance make.

Surely this guidance would make no difference to an extremist.

01-09-2021 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834147#Comment_117834147

I think other, not-extreme believers in gender ideology, and some who don't really "get it" but are being told it's the right thing to do, might jump straight to affirmation, thereby cementing the child's stereotypical thinking and confusing them even further.

LLMMLL · 01-09-2021 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834179#Comment_117834179

The guidance makes no reference to reinforcing stereotypes, or dealing with stereotypes at all unless you view pronouns and toilet usage as stereotypes.

4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

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