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4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    See this is a very good point , coming from genuine concern ,

    These tras or whatever they self appointed themselves as will tell you they are only trying to "protect " your ,mine and others children from something they don't exactly but in their own opinion they are protectors of children ,

    Yet many have neither there own children or any real world experience of children in preschool or school settings ,you get the word of being inclusive yep that's fine ,but when the same people say only trans people/tras and gay men should be allowed to discuss the topic and anyone who disagrees with the agenda is a transphobic , homophobic, anti women's rights (trans rights are women's rights) and should banned because they feel offended ,all while they are inclusive !!!!

    Currently we have 1million school aged children in this country divided between 4000 or so schools , preschools , the number of children referred to the gender identity clinic is less than 20 ,and that number dropped to 14 and it's believed that number will decrease again it like a dying fad that people have woke up to ,

    14 out of 1milllion and yet we see tiny minority wanting this introduced into early years settings and putting it on child care workers to start transitioning children aged 3 or 4 years old ,

    That's not protection that's harmful to very young children ,and you can't claim to be a protective person while seeking to emotionally , mentally and physically bring harm to a child ,

    And it's absolutely not the same as givng your child chemotherapy if they are diagnosed with Cancer .



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Only those kids who ask for certain pronouns to be used will be affected (in a positive way) by this.

    If the numbers are tiny as you believe them to be then this guidance will be positive for them and not affect anyone else.

    If the numbers are much larger than you believe then the guidance will be positive for this larger group, not affect anyone who isn't part for this group.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    I think the people against this guidance do not have kids themselves and those in favour of it at more likely to be parents.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra



    Hahahahaha - "nobody has a problem with 18 year olds changing gender. thats their right" - This is hilarious stuff given that half the posters here would repeal that legal right if they had a chance.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    I certainly wouldn't.

    And you've no evidence to prove "half" of posters would, either.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Sure you dont even believe trans people exist.

    Have you seen not seen the endless trans threads in the CA forum arguing that trans people are endless threats to women, LGB people, children, prisoners, toilet goers.....

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Thank you for your show of support for the LGBTQ community



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    But at the same time anyone who disagrees is a rabid transphobe , homophobic , woman hater because they don't believe a man who says they are a real woman just by saying that they are a woman .and the word Woman , women ,girls , mother is offensive to these men ,so women should be replaced with those who menstruate ,or those who carry children .

    This is Why threads go aray ,you have a tiny militant group who think there here to stop any discussions on the topic . unless they can decide what words and phrases are banned because someone , somewhere might be offended



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    None of which is proof/evidence that people would seek to take the right away from adults to make such a choice.

    The difference is when that choice interacts with other peoples lives, and their own perceived rights. For people like yourself, you seem to believe that the perceived rights of trans people trumps that of everyone else.

    You see? I can make a statement based from basically nothing too, although you made a more definite statement by using "would", as opposed to my "seem to". In any case, both statements are based on nothing except opinion.

    As for trans people not existing, that's the extreme response by advocates of transgender topics, whenever someone says that they believe in biology over the wishes of people.. It's been thrown at quite a few posters on this thread, when they questioned the beliefs of the trans ideology. Generally speaking, most posters against the trans movement, know that there is a tiny percentage of the population that are genuinely trans... but will point out that the remainder claiming such a state are delusional, misguided or mistaken.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148



    "No reason for children to even know about this nonsense"

    It's gas like, you are conveniently ignoring the fact children inherently know this. The know what gender they perceive themselves. They don't need labels and it's nothing to do with Barbie's or boys wearing dresses. That's some (ignorant) adults thinking being put onto children.

    People need to get a grip of themselves, thus really is about providing a little bit of support to children who may be trans. Not converting kids en masse or some "trans agenda" to trans everyone up or any other such nonsense.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Ok, that's your belief. Other people have other beliefs.

    The scientific research is ongoing. Would you ever consider that it's possible that your beliefs may be shown to be wrong?



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    I seem to have made a mistake.

    I wrongly assumed that the poster was talking about condemning or repealing all trans- legislation/rights. I'm obviously against that. Trans- rights exist and we must support those rights - to a point, when it doesn't interfere with the rights of legitimate women.

    And I'm definitely against the introduction of this pernicious "guidance", which - in my view - is nothing more than a Trojan horse for far worse legislation yet to come.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Quite a lot of scientific research, check the literature.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    Gender IS a spectrum, that's for sure (at least that's what we're told).

    Gender is a vast spectrum that extends from the zenith of masculinity to the nadir of feminism - and everything in between. Given the social construct is to vast, broad and even more extensive, it means that all of us - regardless of whether we identify as trans- or non-trans - fall on this spectrum in some way.

    I myself am not 100% masculine. Maybe 89%, perhaps 92% - who knows. Certainly not the perfect example. Where would you fall?

    And that's the point.

    If we are to accept the principle that gender is a spectrum, then all of us - no matter who we are, nor what we believe - fall onto that spectrum and must, by definition, be transgender to some degree.

    Is there a human being on the planet we can point to who is 100% masculine?

    Is there a human being on the planet we can point to who is 100% feminine?

    No, of course not.

    But, we are not all transgender.

    And that's the problem. And it's a problem that the pro-trans lobby singularly fails to address.

    This is a religion. Facts and evidence are set aside. No evidence can possibly be produced to convince the other side they may be wrong. Instead, it comes down to the classic age-old method of religious fundamentalism - namely, proselytization, what you feel, and how you must convert the "other" to the just position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Not sure why you're talking about masculine vs feminine. There are plenty of feminine guys I know and they are male. They are not 87% male or 50% male.

    For someone who claims to be against identifying gender with toy-choice you are very happy to conflate stereotypical masculine traits with being male when it suits you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    Throw away the labels, and let those poor children be.

    It's really not complicated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    The difference is that those who propose the spectrum approach to gender do not exclude those who would be 100% feminine or 100% masculine.

    Those who propose that gender is not a spectrum but one based on two biological sexes excludes the experience of many. It seems allowing for the experience of others is difficult for some. Not sure why.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    I propose that gender doesn't even exist.

    Sex, yes - objectively exists.

    Gender is nothing more than personality descriptions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans




  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    We can objectively test for the existence of sex.

    Gender is subjective. What gender a person chooses today can be changed in 2 weeks, 2 months, or 20 years from now. It's the very opposite of objective.

    There is nothing provable about the existence of gender. It's nothing more than a personality description that can shift with time.

    So yes, problem solved - unless you have evidence that contradicts any of the above.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    So, you do not have a problem with people choosing/changing their gender?

    As an aside, do you believe hermaphrodites exist?



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    The hermaphrodite and the intersex individual are a different category of person, and must not be conflated with the transgender individual. For instance, most people who are intersex do not identify as transgender. Even if they did, that wouldn't validate your point.

    People can indeed choose to change their gender (as is often the case), that's my point. That it can be changed through subjective choice.

    Sex cannot be changed, no matter what you believe or think.

    Therefore imposing subjectivity upon 4-year old children, who can barely count, is an affront against humanity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    By your logic, raising a "biological male" as a boy is an affront against humanity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    How?

    I've already said that biological sex is objective.

    Gender cannot be proved. By what test can we prove gender and/or gender identity?

    For sex, we know exactly what we would do.

    For gender, we rely on subjective opinion - which is the opposite of objectivity.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    My belief that men are men and women are women may be wrong?

    Is that a genuine question?

    I mean, you may as well be asking if it might be possible that my belief that ears are responsible for being able to hear is incorrect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Again by your words,

    A) a child with male sex organs is objectively a boy.

    B) However, the child's gender is subjective. Could be anything. Could be cis, could identify as a male, might not be. It's subjective.

    "Therefore imposing subjectivity (any gender) upon a 4 year old is an affront against humanity"

    Therefore imposing any gender on a 4 year old (even assuming that the objectively male child will identify as male) is an affront against humanity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The mermaids .....

    Barbie at one end Gi Joe at one end and 10 others in between ,

    Neither dolls display gender specific organs ,none nothing.

    That's not scientific, not in any way ......

    Biology and science say that there are two genders though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    Gender doesn't exist.

    What part of that don't you understand?

    You have boys, and you have girls. That's it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    You are treating the child as a boy.

    Because he is one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans




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