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4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Yeah. I don't think you can follow that thought through. Genders are a personality trait about 20 minutes ago. Now, when that doesn't get you where you want to go, now Genders don't exist



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nah. A male child being a boy isn't a matter of opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans



    Shame real life isn't as simple. If only it was.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    Of course genders exist on a subjective basis. Hundreds are invented each month.

    You can have an individual subscribe to agender, then 2-years later to demi-gender, then 20-years later to neutrois.

    For sure, these "genders" subjectively exist - and those who subscribe to them are quite happy with these labels.

    But these labels do not objectively exist.

    They are, as I have said many times now, personality descriptions - nothing more to make the person feel special and unique about themselves.

    To impose that severe level of social subjectivity onto children, and to assume they know exactly what they are doing, at 4-years old, is a catastrophe. It really is an abomination.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    We'll go round the circle again. By your logic, that assuming that a 'biological' boy will identify as a male (a subjective decision) is an abomination. Want to go around a third time.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe




  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I have never actually heard anyone who identifies as opposote gendar to.their sex actually come.out publically and put their name these type proposals (help explain em/their positive points)



    Whole.thing seems like people thinking they know best,what someone else wants/needs,without ever listening to those affected most.....a mild,but well meaning form of arrogance



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    You are ascribing a subjective gender to the biological male there. An affront against humanity, an abomination.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    Male = biological man

    Female = biological female

    All else is emotions.

    This is objectively true, not just emotional experience.

    And this is male/female "genders", what about the "agenderists" who argue that they are neither male nor female?

    No, sorry. We must put a stop to this. Male and female exist. Nobody exists as a non-male or non-female. Aliens are not of this world.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tbf,while ive no doubt your enjoying reeling in posters

    Where do those,whom are born intersex fit in your worldview??



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    So we'll move the goal posts but again those who see gender as a spectrum, include those who do not see themselves as male or female. There are those who want to impose on them that they have to be male or female. End of. Grrrr.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree. I wish life was as easy as being able to define between a boy and a girl. Sadly life isn't as easy as that. Because defining a boy and girl is very easy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    You can self identify as what ever you want or they want , but your still either male or female ,

    There is no broad spectrum ,

    Option A - born male

    Option B -born female

    It's not a restaurant menu where you can pick and choose what sides you want with a meal or real meat Vs vegan options.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Unless you are hermaphrodite.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Do you think that your parents should choose what you identify as, given that you can identify as whatever you want.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Do you think children should be allowed to decide everything they feel is reality, and should be validated by the parents even when it flies in the face of actual facts?

    Do you think parents should teach children verifiable truths such as biology and mathematics or would you prefer they learn about your assertion that boys and girls are whatever you will them to be?

    Should children be corrected when they are incorrect or is being incorrect a matter of opinion?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    But the crux of the matter your either option A or option B,

    Yes you can self identify as options C-Z + a few numbers,it still doesn't change your either A or B.

    Be what ever you want to , but if you claim your a washing machine then your a washing machine ,

    but can anyone be forced to believe that you are an actual washing machine .

    No .



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Seeing as you answered a question with a series of questions.

    No. Children are taught and develop a schema of what's happening in the world. What and how they are taught will be important for how they are to progress through the world and how they deal with the challenges that they encounter. They can be taught that everything in the world is black or white and when encountering grey, no matter how awkward or uncomfortable it feels, it has to be black or white. It might go against your experience but it has to be so.

    Or you can teach children to understand that never to be dogmatic about anything, that there are exceptions to every rule, that the greatest scientists in the world have all been wrong, and that there is tons left to discover. Teach them to be wary of dogmatic people, they are often trying to make like simple for themselves to comprehend or they are selling you something. Make up your own mind when you are able and my job as a parent is to prepare you to make your best decisions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    No one is fighting to change the history; that the person was biologically born a male or as a female.

    Some seen to think is that because they were born that way they HAVE to be identify that way, regardless of how strongly they feel it or any mental issues that arise from that mismatch.

    What is claimed is that they feel that they were born with isn't what they identify as. As part of that identity some would like to change their physical features. So what.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @Morgans - I take it your a parent like my self ,

    So you either have a son or daughter or multiples or either ,

    Who made the decision on what to identify them as , I've no idea if your mam or dad purely based off I don't think I've came across your posts before today apologies if we have met on thread,

    When your child or children were born and you were told congratulations you have a little boy or girl did you correct the midwifery team and say that's not for you to decide ,

    But parents and educators know children can go through phase's especially in teens same sex crushes and so on do we tell our kids that's ok to like your friend or classmate or teacher even if they are the same sex ,

    Or do we say your now gay and cannot be anything else you can only fancy other males or females ,for me I don't Tell my child your now gay and cannot be anything else ,no I tell my child it's ok to like (crush) fancy another boy or girl or even both ,I support them but also warn them be careful because the other person may not have the same type of feelings and could react badly if you tell them,

    If my child says dad I'm a space alien ,yes your a space Alien ,but again be careful not everyone will see you as a space alien and nor can they be forced to believe or accept your a space alien or anything else you self identify as .



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Yes. I am a parent. One 4 year old boy. No one has made the decision on what they identify as. He knows plenty about gender but nothing he needs to decide on now. I have corrected him that men can be teachers - he didn't want to be one as it's a girls job (all playschool teachers were female). I wouldnt care if he picked up a barbie in the morning, wanted to wear dresses or make up, or said he'd prefer to be a girl etc. Not the age to worry about it perhaps I'd monitor it more closely to see if it was the start of a pattern (it would be unusual). Buy if he wants to be a space alien at 4, leave him be a space alien. Has no consequence. Same as him wanting to be a girl.

    Anyone complaining to the midwife in your scenario above are zealots. They wouldn't be my kind of people. Like the atheist correcting a grandfather for offering prayers of sympathy at a funeral. You can have your beliefs, no need to be an asshole as well.

    I have heard of parents not forcing blue or pink on their kids and trying to make their upbringing gender neutral. I can understand that, even if it's not what I did. It would be difficult and I wouldn't have the willpower. I don't think it damages the kid in any way.

    I think there is a way in which your kid gets socialised while when necessary introducing him to some of the complexities of life. More important that he gets along with others, is keen to learn and be happy.

    I do think the parents who force their kids to always behave the 'normal' way for their biological sex do far more damage than those in the daily mail clickbait that started this thread, even by the sheer numbers we are talking about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    And that is is it, just some support for those that need it.

    Hard to see why you wouldn't want to do that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    No one is trying to convert anyone (except maybe the Daily Mail or the telegraph trying to convert legitimate people into subscribers).



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,479 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    When my son was younger I naturally leaned into the fact that he was a boy (radical I know) so lots of rough and tumble play, kicking a ball around the park yada yada, it was fun for him and me. What I didnt do was be overly prescriptive what the particular activities were , like any normal parent you throw stuff at them and see what sticks. By around 12 they start asserting what they want to do or not so you work with that.

    it didnt happen but if junior had asked for a Barbie I probably would have said in a jokey manner that his friends wouldn't think its cool yet when he was in preschool we bought him a lot of arts and crafts stuff which is objectively good for small motor skills yet the stuff was often packaged to appeal to girls

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    So teach the child that every established rule is bullshit, they can make their own rules about things and people who formed solid evidence backed opinions and statements are all clowns who don’t know what your child knows.


    That sounds like **** great parenting right there - let us know how yours are progressing when they hit 15 with the above mindset.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    You can put words in my mouth or put whatever spin on what I said that you wish. I take from your reaction that a nerve has been touched. Best of luck with the current/future parenting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Yeah. All very normal stuff. I think even now, at 4, my dream to force a Tiger Woods/Serena Williams type plan for future sporting greatness has fallen behind schedule. I have noticed how he has learned to use his elbows when trying to beat me running. He has picked that up from somewhere. At this stage as long as he is happy, couldn't care what he is doing.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think that's an eminently sensible way to raise a child, and agree that the most important thing to teach children is to be kind to others, and to be understanding of them. My boy loves unicorns, and pink is one of his favourite colours. But that doesn't make me think anything at all about his "gender". Unicorns are aesthetically very attractive, and pink is a bright, happy colour. It makes complete sense that a child—whatever their sex—would like those things. He also insisted for a little while last year on being called "Jeff" (not his name). So I obliged, and he was very amused, and then he decided he didn't like it and went back to tell me he was The Hulk. Had he insisted on being called "Jane", I would still have obliged—and I still would not have thought it had any bearing on his "gender". He will be a degree of masculine and a degree of feminine, and I will love him regardless of how much of either he is on any given day. But he will never be female.

    I think adults can do whatever they want to do, so long as they're not harming anyone else. If a person suffering with gender dysphoria has their psychological pain eased by changing their body and presenting to the world as the opposite sex, they can go right ahead and I'm not going to be an asshole about it. But if my child comes to me and tells me they're suffering with gender dysphoria, feel that they are the opposite sex, or whatever, then I will continue my policy of being honest with them. It is impossible to change sex. A male person can never, ever become a female person and a female person can never, ever become a male person. Just as an intersex person, however they present, is lumped with being intersex forever, because it is written into the very code that creates them.

    A person with gender dysphoria can take hormones and have surgeries and alter their male bodies to approximate the generally accepted view of what a "female body" is externally (or vice versa), but then they will be a male with an altered body, not a female. And in the course of altering that body, they will be committing themselves to a lifelong hormone therapy that can and does have severe long-term health consequences, because their biology will never stop being a part of the reality—and the body—they live in. And the hormone therapies and physical interventions that are offered to them cause lasting, often permanent changes, which will remain if they end up being one of the increasing number of desisters.

    I'm frankly not surprised that the prevalence of "gender questioning" people is increasing. Partly due to the increased visibility of trans people allowing genuinely dysphoric young people to feel more comfortable, yes, but also because, for all our talk of equality and gender neutral this and that, Western societies are actually doing a bloody awful job with gender and sex. To look at our entertainment media—a huge part of any post-productivity culture—one would think that the only way to "be" a woman is to spend hours in the salon, getting haircuts and lash extensions, micro-bladed brows and lip fillers, dental veneers and fake tan. There seems to be little room in our culture—at least in the parts of it we hold up for display—for the shy, nerdy girls, or the dark, creative girls, or the book-smart butch girls. And in any case, we tell girls, you are weak and at-risk at every moment because you are female. As far as boys go, our cultural messages are all bout their "toxicity", their dominance, their easy life and privilege. It doesn't matter, in our culture, how you decide to "be" a man—you are a villain, and this holds true regardless of the actual level of privilege you enjoy, and no matter how kind and compassionate you may be. So I find myself completely unsurprised when an increasing number of girls and boys, young women and young men, particularly if they are steeped in an online culture that sees "not cisgender" as somehow superior or better, start believing in and playing with their "gender identity".

    And I honestly don't see much wrong with young people playing around with their identity. Young people's job is to "find themselves" in the complicated mire of life, to play around with their personalities and experiment with different things. The issues arise when the adults in the room all decide to abdicate their responsibility and allow themselves to be pressured by Twitter mobs and extremely ideologically driven charities. When instead of seeing the "gender identity" play as a current-day subculture that runs parallel to the phenomenon of people with genuine and severe gender dysphoria—the same way society viewed other subcultures like punk, goth, emo, new romantics, and even the MySpace "list your phobias" lot that immediately preceded the gender identity subculture—they allow themselves to bullied into a position where the subculture gets to dictate policy, up to and including the irreversible medicalising of children and young people, and where any suggestion or attempt to treat the psychological issues of people within the subculture that do not comport with an affirmation-only model are treated as being identical to (horrific) homosexual conversion therapy as though they were one and the same.

    Some of the most devastating stories I've read from desisters have involved young people who, a few years after starting hormones, sometimes after having irreversible surgeries, have come to the realisation "I will never be the opposite sex". I think we are failing those people by not being clear enough about sex and the behavioural spectrum from masculine to feminine, because we are failing (still) to decouple masculine from male and feminine from female, instead of making clear that "gender" is nothing more than a statement about whether a given behaviour or trait is more common in males or females in a given culture, which is subject to change over time. We need to be more robustly teaching children about the differences between male and female humans (a thing we have no problem with when it comes to any other sexually dimorphic species) and celebrating both, while also letting them know that their interests and preferences, however common they happen to be in either sex in our culture, are acceptable. Ultimately the goal (IMO) should be to greatly reduce the instanced of unnecessary gender confusion, be frank with young people about the path ahead if they transition, reduce "desisters" to a number as close to zero as it is possible to get by offering good, long-term support through the questioning phase, and give genuinely long-term gender dysphoric people the treatments they need to alleviate their psychological suffering (including, in the case of physical transition, tools to deal with the fact that they cannot control the minds of others, and that many people will not ever really see them as being the opposite sex).

    Arguments about sex-based rights aside, the goal should always be to reduce suffering. Giving children facts about the immutability of sex and the nebulous nature of "gender" can only help, and telling Jeff, who now wants to be called Jane and wear a skirt in school, that he's now a girl, does not seem helpful. The guidance not to even question children's requests to change name or use a different toilet, even before they're at an age where they can tie their own shoe laces, seems to me to be a path that can only increase confusion.

    As for telling the parents—I imagine that is open to legal challenge, should any parent decide to take that route. Teachers are not qualified to assess whether a child who wishes to present in ways more generally associated with the opposite sex are suffering from gender dysphoria, a DSM5-classified mental disorder, and would therefore be potentially interfering with the parent's ability to seek adequate psychological help and support for their child.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    I'm not necessarily talking about your post here but in general, I find it difficult to accept at face value the concern that transphobes claim to have for the mental health for those who are transitioning.

    For most of their communicaion, they spend as much time adding to the mental health issues of those who do suffer from gender dysphoria. Mental health is only an issue for those who go so far to transition, otherwise, gender is something trivial, a personality trait that can be flicked on and off, morning noon and night. There are only two genders and no matter what you say, you must be one you were born with. All done with zero concern for the mental health of anyone who may be in that situation, while reading their posts.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    No, there are only two sexes. You are not born with a gender, you are born with a sex. Trans- should refer to transitioning between these sexes: male to female etc.

    Gender has wrecked everything. Now it means you can be agender or non-binary. You cannot "transition" to become non-binary; it's simply a personality description, often for attention seeking purposes in my view.

    When trans- meant male to female surgery etc., very few people had any issues.

    Now that trans- refers to self-identification / non-binary personality labels / invented pronouns, the goalposts have shifted into very ugly, anti-scientific territory.



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