What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

To say this multicultural thing is destined for failure depends on what you'd set as failure or success.

I'd go with the economic cost and social stability.

In every western nation where the multiculturalism experiment has been encouraged, it's resulted in divisions in society with each minority seeking a piece of the pie. All with their own individual views on the place of women in society, how children should be treated, homosexuality, etc along with the perceptions on corruption in society and authority. Just as in every western nation, at the bottom of the economic groups in terms of wealth and employment, you will find migrant groups. That includes migrants who have been in a country for two or three generations.

Yes, there are many skilled/educated migrants who either come under limited visas (and leave) or a lesser group who come here and stay. There's others who gain an education here, and leave or stay. Indeed there are.

This is not an all or nothing proposition. That's the problem on this thread. The belief that when posters criticise multiculturalism or immigration, then that must mean we want a completely white nation or not immigration at all... if you go through the thread, there is extremely little of that going on. In fact, skilled immigration is well supported here regardless of where the migrant comes from..

However, there is a cost.. and it's a cost that has been deferred by our governments for decades. It's the rising welfare costs, the costs allocated to migrant groups and NGOS, the costs separately assigned to poverty related organisations, the upsurges and change in the manner of crime in Ireland. Not it's not all about the migrants, but they are part of the overall problem.

Err.. Let's not go there. That's American bs..

I'd be more concerned with rising foreign populations and the taking over of suburbs or depopulated towns, similar to what's happened in France, with the enforcement of their own cultural/religious customs on the local/native people (or pushing them out). Educated migrant groups are just as likely to have strong religious/cultural beliefs, as the poor migrant groups. IF anything, probably stronger beliefs, because they would have moved here due to economic considerations, and have less reasons to feel grateful to Ireland for settlement.

Some Muslim majority countries, yes.

but not all.

TBH I think assimilation is no longer an option. It was possible when countries were more isolated, and populations didn't move around so much. But with the scope of telecommunications, the internet, the media, etc people are far more connected than before, and it's easier to maintain connections with your native culture while living abroad. I spent over a decade in China, and even with internet restrictions, I could keep in touch with family, and Ireland easily.

The point is that there's no benefit to assimilation anymore. Previously, as a migrant even if you gained citizenship, you were still a foreigner, lacking many of the protections and benefits of being a native person. Assimilation was the way to gain acceptance by your neighbors and your local area, in addition to the legal benefits. Now, there's no need for that because we're multicultural (whether we want it or not). People are expected to be different... and the sense of community that used to be so common, is dead in most towns/cities. It's just not there anymore.. except for tribal groups of migrant cultures.. so again, no reason to assimilate because that would mean losing access to your own cultural connections.

Assimilate into what though? Western culture is under attack from within. Our values, and beliefs are no longer fashionable, and common sense is essentially dead. We're all on the guilt trip train... and very few of our cultural values remain untarnished.

You see, the question about Irish culture tends to bother me, because I don't know what is Irish culture anymore. TBH, I don't know what is any individual western nations culture is anymore. From living outside Europe, I learned the difference was more to do with values. A perception about honesty and a dislike of corruption. That's common in northern European countries, but the opposite in Mediterranean countries. The importance of individual rights and expression. Sure, that's a part of western culture, and so on.

That's what I tend to think of when it comes to assimilation. What is different from other cultural groups? The values we place importance on, not just publicly (which is often bs) but what we hold to be important on a local level. However, I see our values declining in importance over time, and there being very little actual difference with other continental groups. But maybe, that's just me.

In any case, my original question remains... assimilate into what?

Perhaps, although I'd say the evolution and growth in influence of the social sciences has shown that we no longer have any real connection with the attributes you listed above. They're all under attack, whether that's under the guise of race theory, gender theory, feminism, etc.. and those attacks are expanding in scope. Sure, we could say that's just the US, but it's not anymore.

TBH I barely recognise Irish culture now after living over a decade abroad. I don't see the values that we used to hold so dear as being important anymore. They've given way to various groups "rights", or the destruction of various institutions that previously served to provide boundaries on behavior, and the enforcement of codes of morality. It's all connected.

And I'm not saying it's all doomed to fail in the end. Cultures go through cycles, and reversals of change. In many ways, western culture has become less individualistic and more collectivist over the last two decades. In pushing for individual rights, the rights and beliefs of others are being trampled, and that encourages a range of bitterness/anger which can only manifest in a pushback. TBH I suspect within the next 2-3 decades, we'll be seeing a return to a much more traditional and controlled society/culture, more in line with pre-WW2 cultures... simply because there's been too much change without real consideration for what comes after.

However, it comes back to what people are supposed to assimilate into, and what motivation exists to do so? (when they can get all benefits and privilege without needing to assimilate) (and there being no agreed framework for the culture they're supposed to adopt)

BTW, I'm not against assimilation. I believe it's the only real answer to immigration in large numbers... but realistically, I wonder if it's even possible anymore.

Good job we control our immigration here in this country!

It should be monitored and regulated the same as any other border. Covid has reinforced the need for this considering the lack of measures in place to prevent the spread of the virus during periods when Ireland was locked down, but the North wasn't, and had elevated numbers of people with the virus. Similar problems with Irish people going to the UK, or British people coming here for sports events or entertainment. The same counts for immigration.

TBH I've never agreed with there being a soft border with the North, and we should be examining every person who seeks to enter the Republic (while also keeping note of those who leave).

Being 100% Irish means being born to two Irish parents. Not that being born to one means someone is less irish, if that what they consider themselves.

Irish culture is whatever people believe it to be. We can claim Irish music, dance, food etc but as you point out, these things change over time. Some Irish people have no interest in traditional 'Irish culture' that doesn't make them any less Irish then someone who plays the bodhran while dancing the siege of Ennis.

There are non Irish people living in Ireland that embrace our traditionally irish culture, are they more Irish then those who dont?

I still don't understand what the issue is if 3 out of 4 people living here are ethnically Irish? What difference does it make? Sounds like something that is said to scare people.

I still don't understand what the issue is if 3 out of 4 people living here are ethnically Irish? What difference does it make? Sounds like something that is said to scare people.

People bring change with them, and a lot of the change that they bring with them is less than obvious. I get that there's an attitude on boards that people are afraid of change, and that it's wrong to think that way, but for myself, I've seen a lot of change in Ireland/"the West" over the last three decades, with a lot of it being negative. Now, some of that is natural, due to the advancement of technology and the response of society to adapt to the new environment. Or the relaxation of social norms, such as teenagers being able to see nudity in movies. Many little changes over time to culminate in an overall change to the culture of a country. Which is normal.

When a country is homogeneous, or relatively so, that change to society tends to follow a... somewhat unified direction. [At least, it used to before the social sciences gained so much influence, and their divisive ideas became commonplace]. The problem with multiculturalism, or the statistic of 20% of the Irish being foreign born is that it's a massive change to the demographic of the country in a short period of time, but also the beliefs/ideas/desires that comes with them. It's one thing if they were all from other western nations, in which case, the desires for change would follow a fairly similar line, due to a shared history of morality, or belief systems, but when you're talking about large groups from Africa, M.East, etc all with very different backgrounds, morals, etc, the implementation of change will be more fractured, introducing a much wider range of ideas. Beneficial or desired for one group but not desired by another.

I hated growing up in Ireland, and I was incredibly happy to leave. However, after leaving Ireland, I spent time in a wide range of countries, and at the end of it all, I recognised that Ireland was a better country for people to live in overall. It still wasn't a country I wanted to live in but, it was safer, generally more honest, and so on. As more people come in though, that is changing. Quickly.

Not really explaining what I mean very well, but I don't have the time right now to organise/format my thoughts. Hopefully you know what I mean.

Bubblypop, that's my issue with the demographic change. People have needs, and desires... usually heavily influenced by the culture they grew up in. Some break away to be different, but most people carry those needs/desires within themselves, wanting their new home to adopt/provide them. The problem is that with so many different cultures, there is going to be a clash in expectations for what the country provides, and how society alters in order to provide it.

Its all about the Muslims for you, Anne 🙄

I have family in many different countries, some of whom are very Irish in the culture, despite never living here, some of my family in this country are not.

What is your point?

I understand what you are saying, but I generally disagree.

I believe Ireland is a much better place to live them it was, and I don't believe it was more honest, it was safer, but I don't believe that immigrants have changed it. The drug culture that began in the early 80s and the Celtic tiger are what has changed the country the most.

No-one is diluting anything.

80 million people around the world claim Irish ancestry. There are GAA clubs in all corners of the world. People Irish dance everywhere.

In fact, I would think that Irish traditions and culture is getting stronger for the last 100 years. I see no reason to worry.