Abortion in America

Timberrrrrrrr · 02-09-2021 4:50pm #1

I haven't seen a thread on this yet but wondering what people's thoughts are.

Basically now in Texas if you want an abortion after six weeks you can't have one, There is no wiggle room even for rape or incest.

The worst part is that it's not the police who will get you but your family, friends, neighbours. They can sue health care professionals or If you help someone obtain an abortion you can be sued. They have even incentivesed people to report anyone getting an abortion by offering a $10,000 "reward".

Below is the White House statement on the matter, hopefully they can somehow get this overturned.

MrMusician18 · 02-09-2021 4:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058207076/abortion-in-america

Why should anyone in Ireland care about this?

The constant importing of the US's problems into Irish discourse is completely poisonous. This is a Texan law for Texans that their legislature has passed. It's for them and their people to determine if it's what they want.

Timberrrrrrrr · 02-09-2021 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839020#Comment_117839020

I have an interest in US politics, if you don't then maybe don't click on a thread that clearly has America" in the title 🤷‍♂️

Oh, and FYI....Not everyone on this site is Irish or lives in Ireland, this law could affect some of the people who post on here.

joe40 · 02-09-2021 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839020#Comment_117839020

Are you seriously trying to tell people what they should and should not discuss?

Fiery mutant · 02-09-2021 5:19pm

watch as all the poisonous bu11sh1ter types in the US start reporting on and sueing their neighbours for mundane reasons they have no clue about. The US has been on a slide over the last few years that shows No sign of slowing down.

Manic Moran · 02-09-2021 5:27pm

Surprised that the White House puts out a statement with a factual inaccuracy in the very first line. SCOTUS did not issue a ruling. In fact, it didn't do anything at all, it declined to interfere at this stage in procedings. (Which is kindof mentioned in the first line of the second paragraph). It may yet get to SCOTUS for an actual ruling, but through the normal channels.

Objection to abortion in the US system is based on one of two factors. The first is the moral, the right to life of the unborn. The other is the legal, which doesn't care so much about the outcome, but the mechanism used to create the outcome. This is one of those major splits in US legal philosophy, is the result more important than adherence to the written legal structure? And this goes far, far beyond just abortion, it is a major split in the schools of jurisprudence. It happens that those who follow the 'rule' more then 'result' philosophy, particularly such as Thomas or Gorsuch, also tend to be those who are on the side of the 'right to life of the unborn,' so there is a lot of controversy over whether the 'conservative' justices are ruling for the unborn, or if they are ruling consistent with their judicial philosophy. This is also why Roe v Wade is so 'vulnerable' to legal reversal: It's not as if there is something directly in the Federal Constitution to point to like there is for the right to protections from search or the right to firearms, there is a level of 'inference' involved which is counter to the philosophies of textualism. There is no Federal US equivalent to the Irish Eighth/Thirty-Sixth amendments.

Loafing Oaf · 02-09-2021 5:29pm

Such a weird Orwellian way to go about trying to restrict abortion. I presume most of the actual suing will be of clinics/medical facilities? If an individual woman is seeking an abortion, in most cases who else would know?

MrMusician18 · 02-09-2021 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839079#Comment_117839079

No, what I'm saying is that a) this is none of our business and B) debating it here will only serve to further import the US's poisonous culture war.

If the US wants to tear itself apart, let them at it. That's their problem.

Timberrrrrrrr · 02-09-2021 5:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839138#Comment_117839138

If you help someone obtain an abortion, if you drive them to a clinic to get one then you too can be sued. What a crazy situation, and rape/incest? It doesn't matter.

TheValeyard · 02-09-2021 5:34pm

White House probably use this as an excuse to appoint more liberal judges to the Supreme Court. It had been talked about previously.

Think the whole thing with Texas is coming down to State laws vs Federal laws. Which has its supporters and detractors on both sides.

Quantum Erasure · 02-09-2021 5:43pm

we won't solve it here tonight anyway....

Tony EH · 02-09-2021 6:09pm

They have even incentivesed people to report anyone getting an abortion by offering a $10,000 "reward".

Wow.

02-09-2021 6:32pm

OP, I'm guessing that you're pro-abortion, which is fine, but I'm still guessing because you didn't really place your opinions for us to follow.

I am curious though about something. Where do you think it leads to? Think of Asia, maybe China in particular, where a girl/woman can get an abortion for a 100 dollars. Or hit one of the backstreet places for less (no identification needed). I had university students aged 20 who were already past their 3rd abortion and didn't see anything wrong with it. It was fast, easy, cheap, etc. No moral confusion or guilt trip involved. They were pregnant and they removed the problem... because that is what abortion is about.

It's one thing to give women the choice, it's another thing to consider what will happen in society when those choices are exercised. Do you favor limiting women's choices to match your moral standards, or should it be a free-for-all where they can abort any time they want?

----

Now, personally, I've always viewed this as being a womans choice, however, if she's married, it shouldn't be allowed without her husbands consent. Takes two to tango and all that. So, obviously, I feel that there should be limitations in place to restrict how an abortion is approved. The option should be available for women, but restrictions should be in place to avoid the culture that Asia has about them.

So, where would you stand on it? Not the simple question of should Abortion be available, because that's been done to death. How about the harder questions relating to the effect abortion has on society, and people themselves?

Timberrrrrrrr · 02-09-2021 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839354#Comment_117839354

Thank you for your well thought out insightful post.

You are right in your guess that I am not so much pro abortion but certainly pro choice, I'm also in favour of time limits on when abortion should be available to (12 weeks for me seems right, after that only in the case of rape, incest, FFA or if the mothers life is in danger).

You ask about the effect abortion has on society but on the flip side you have to question the lack of abortions effect on society. Should a woman be forced to raise a child she does not want or cannot afford to have?

We already have a generation or two of young men growing up without fathers around and without a strong male influence in thier lives it can lead to them taking a path to crime/drugs etc. If the mother had the choice at the time maybe she would have chosen not to carry to term and aborted within the time frame allowed.

I'm certainly not saying this is the case with all children of single parents but I'm sure it is a factor for some.

Do you believe the decision made in Texas is a good one? Should a teenage girl get raped tomorrow and her mother takes her to get an abortion should the mother be sued for helping the daughter abort a baby she does not want to have?

02-09-2021 7:14pm

The small gubberment™️ crowd wanting the government infringing on an individual's liberty...

I stand utterly aghast.

Manic Moran · 02-09-2021 7:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839497#Comment_117839497

The argument is that abortion infringes upon the liberty of the unborn. After all, pursuit of life, liberty and happiness is a bit difficult if you are terminated.

That entire argument is purely moral/philosophical. Why is an abortion almost universally legal at 6 days after conception, almost universally illegal after six months after conception, and entirely illegal six seconds after birth? How does one define 'a life worthy of legal protection'?

Solve that question, and you've solved the entire abortion argument. And probably a slew of other philosophical questions which have been bedevilling mankind for a few thousand years.

02-09-2021 8:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839432#Comment_117839432

You didn't answer my question. You deflected with your own.

Personally, I'm in favor of pro-choice for all women, although with a clear restriction of the number of abortions within a certain timeframe. I believe anyone who is applying for an abortion should be investigated by "family services" or something similar to ensure that they're not in an abusive relationship. Just as I believe that abortion should never be allowed to become a casual choice. There needs to be some gravitas involved, without a guilt trip.

We need to recognise that our societies are changing, and many of the frameworks for morality are being removed. Religion is increasingly being pushed back, which is where a lot of our morals about sex and abortions came from. Yes. It was a flawed system, and remarkably unfair to women, but what is replacing it? Nothing as far as I can see. And no, I don't have an answer to that question..

Timberrrrrrrr · 02-09-2021 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839636#Comment_117839636

What about the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness for the 13 year old rape victim who's parents could bow be sued for getting her an abortion?

Timberrrrrrrr · 02-09-2021 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839671#Comment_117839671

I agree with you that abortion shouldn't be a free for all and I don't believe it is, we heard this before the referendum about how women would be using it as a means of contraception but that was just the pro life side using that as scaremongering, there is no proof of this happening in Ireland.

On religion, I'm happy to seeing it pushed back and would be even happier if all religions would disappear tomorrow. I believe Religion has been the biggest cause of death in the world since the first man made up the first "god".

Manic Moran · 02-09-2021 8:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839684#Comment_117839684

Another example as to just how squishy and morals-related the whole argument is, isn't it? Everyone agrees that there is a line to be drawn, the question is 'where'? More people will agree to the rape/incest exception than would agree to a hard time limit. After all, the child of a rape does not have any lesser rights to life than any other individual, do they? What we are doing is a moral balancing act which is itself premised on philosophical concepts like "life". No wonder there is controversy on the matter.

Cookie_Monster · 02-09-2021 8:39pm

So whats to stop you travelling to the next state over, just like what Irish women used to have to do?

Or is out of state medical care in the US another no-no

Manic Moran · 02-09-2021 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839801#Comment_117839801

Nothing.

https://19thnews.org/2021/09/as-texas-patients-prepare-to-travel-hundreds-of-miles-for-abortion-access-out-of-state-clinics-brace-for-surge/

Sudden Valley · 02-09-2021 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839819#Comment_117839819

I guess then it only controls what the poor can or can't do. The rich don't have to worry about this ruling at all.

02-09-2021 9:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839706#Comment_117839706

Ahh... but I already provided the scenario for abortion being a free for all... Asia. It's extremely common there, advertised in fashion magazines, and in subways alongside plastic surgery. The question is whether we'll end up the same way.

Loafing Oaf · 02-09-2021 9:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839935#Comment_117839935

It's very common everywhere. I'm not really seeing how Asia is much different from anywhere else with 'liberal' abortion laws. It's free in Ireland you know...

ceadaoin. · 02-09-2021 9:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839935#Comment_117839935

Well it doesn't seem to have gone that way in the US in all the years that abortion has been available does it?

02-09-2021 10:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839981#Comment_117839981

I guess that depends on what state you look at, and which particular demographic... but honestly, I don't know that much about it. I have a few American friends and remember a conversation about abortion being very common in the South, especially among the poorer/less educated regions. I don't pay much attention to American society anymore.

Multipass · 02-09-2021 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839801#Comment_117839801

It’s Texas though, the next state over could be a 14 hour drive. They may as well just say that abortion is banned outright, 6 weeks is just at the limit of finding out you’re pregnant - the day you conceive you’re already at 2 weeks!

02-09-2021 10:11pm

A state that will pay people to inform on their neighbours,will eventually either end up autoritarian as fcuk or decend into anarchy imo

Tony EH · 03-09-2021 1:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839733#Comment_117839733

It's true that the line will be different for everyone. But I certainly don't think that the line is to be drawn any where near paying people to rat out girls who have had, or are thinking of having, an abortion.

Tony EH · 03-09-2021 1:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839801#Comment_117839801

Nothing. Except perhaps Mrs Miggins down the road knows that you're up the duff and then all of a sudden you're not and she's entitled to a big payout for informing on you.

dePeatrick · 03-09-2021 1:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840381#Comment_117840381

How on earth could a neighbour know you are pregnant?

jill_valentine · 03-09-2021 1:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840387#Comment_117840387

Maybe she noticed you didn't buy tampons one month. Maybe she heard you puking one morning. Maybe nothing at all, there's actually nothing in the legislation preventing her from initiating a case without knowing for sure.

If she turns out to be right, she gets 10k. If she turns out to be wrong you get nothing but a legal bill. And there's nothing legislated to protect you from Mrs Biggins, your other neighbour initiating exactly the same case against you even then. And then Mrs Wiggins after that. Anybody from out of state who helped you is also potentially liable.

I don't think people fully appreciate how terrible a precedent this is, and the Supreme Court letting it fly means it won't stop with abortion. America is looking down the barrel of a very dark future now this is an established mechanism.

dePeatrick · 03-09-2021 1:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840393#Comment_117840393

Oh I agree it is an awful precedent, quite unbelievable tbh…but was just thinking about how it is going to work?

Tony EH · 03-09-2021 2:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840387#Comment_117840387

It's called gossip and rumour and it circulates like wildfire.

dePeatrick · 03-09-2021 2:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840419#Comment_117840419

Sounds like a great opportunity for false flags! I can’t believe I have lived long enough to see the world go backwards…🙁

03-09-2021 2:26am

People will just travel to the nearest state. It probably won't affect abortion rates at all.

A populist ruling in a red state.

jill_valentine · 03-09-2021 2:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840424#Comment_117840424

Probably not, but if Republicans cared about affecting abortion rates they'd be enthusiastic advocates for contraception. And wealthy women will still be able to get them, no problem.

The problem is that travelling out of state takes time and money a lot of vulnerable women who need abortions don't have. Women in abusive relationships, for example, would need to come up with time and resources to get out of state, and stay in the neighbouring state long enough to meet whatever waiting period requirements or whatever other obstacles that other state has, all with the risk of their abuser dobbing them in for 10k.

The effect it will have on abortion rates will probably be statistically negligible, but it will still ruin lives, and it's a matter of time before they start using the same trick against the rest of their whipping boy shopping list. It's genuinely nightmarish stuff.

03-09-2021 2:44am

It's a sad state of affairs alright. These rulings were always coming after the Supreme Court was overloaded with conservatives over the last few years.

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-09-2021 5:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840393#Comment_117840393

it's akin to the witch hunts of the olden days imo, back then if you didn't like someone you just accused them of being a witch and they would be tortured/burned at the stake.

The modern equivalent, accuse your neighbours of having an abortion and put them through the torture of being investigated/questioned even if they haven't had one.

wench · 03-09-2021 6:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839354#Comment_117839354

So if a woman gets married, her husband assumes control of her reproductive rights? Do you not see how open to abuse that would be?

If a married woman is taking birth control, her husband could sabotage it to get her pregnant, and there is nothing she can do about it.

Or if she tries to leave him and he rapes and impregnates her, she still has to carry it.

ohnonotgmail · 03-09-2021 8:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839819#Comment_117839819

no consequences for the pregnant but there are for anybody that helps her. This is a ban on abortion by the backdoor that the taliban would be proud of.

Manach · 03-09-2021 8:21am

Thankfully, some form of protections are being put in place for the unborn. Having done law, I'm aware that the infamous judgement in Roe vs Wade is at a Federal level that removed the option for states to craft their own laws. The progressive meltdown in the US over this and their hyperbolic reaction seeming does not grasp this or that other states are free to main their draconic killing of the unborn up until birth laws. But as the progressives in the US and in Ireland regard abortion as core expressions of their belief system, one expects such nuances to fail to move them.

03-09-2021 8:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840496#Comment_117840496

Which is not what I said, and a perfect example for how people/posters often jump to the most extreme reaction.

And honestly, I can't be bothered threading the needle required to discuss this since I suspect no answer will be acceptable

jill_valentine · 03-09-2021 8:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840719#Comment_117840719

To be fair Islam would actually oblige the Taliban to permit abortion up to I think 3 months.

This effectively makes women of childbearing age guilty of a crime by default until proven otherwise.

wench · 03-09-2021 9:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840764#Comment_117840764

You said she can't have an abortion without her husband's consent. How did you intend that to be taken?

Loafing Oaf · 03-09-2021 9:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840395#Comment_117840395

I'm trying to figure that out too. Surely serious anti-abortion activists will be focusing on 'abortion providers' like Planned Parenthood rather than on women seeking abortions and individuals helping them? Going round trying to sue the latter just seems so inefficient and hit-and-miss...

ohnonotgmail · 03-09-2021 9:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841047#Comment_117841047

with the law as it is they can sue Planned parenthood into bankruptcy. PP will have to pay their own legal costs even if they win. They can also do this at no costs to themselves. if they sue PP and lose the state of Texas will pay their legal costs. it is a law that is beyond fucked up. they can do the same to individuals and dont think they won't.

03-09-2021 9:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841024#Comment_117841024

Which is not the same as what you said previously.

jill_valentine · 03-09-2021 9:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841105#Comment_117841105

Ireland isn't a Island politically. It shouldn't need explaining that a policy change this enormous in the US will have influence elsewhere, especially when Ireland's own political crackpots are already holding it up as a model and no doubt looking for lessons to draw from it.

03-09-2021 9:49am

What if some Samaritan in TX gives a ride to a woman seeking an abortion in a neighbouring state, drops them off, wishes them good luck, but on the drive back has a crisis of conscience and hands themselves in to TX police where they make a full confession, not knowing that the person they dropped off decided not to go ahead with the abortion?

Would they nevertheless be prosecuted on the basis that the intent was there? Could people end up in prison for assisting an abortion that didn't happen?

Asking for someone that is not a friend. :)

Abortion in America

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