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4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

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  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    True, sex and gender are not the same.... but they're linked. Consider, for a moment, the movement that is " Trans ". It includes everything from gender fluid, non-binary, to full and partial physical transitioning. It's not a movement that is separated into parts when people talk about it.. and when people advocate Trans rights or Trans beliefs, that talk includes subject matter related to the overall movement.

    You see, I've made this point a number of times but nobody has addressed it. In order to cater to/support the needs of children who naturally seek gender change (that tiny group), the remainder of the group will need to be informed about gender change (so that those who are hiding their desire, know that they can come out without fear), and to do that in a manner for children to understand, the language will need to be coached in a manner that makes gender change and the overall trans ideology as being acceptable, and without risk. That means promoting gender change to children who would never have thought of it themselves (the majority). It also means removing the complexities involved in the trans topic, and ensuring that it is promoted in the best possible way...

    It's the beginning of conditioning to make the Trans movement accepted by targeting children. It doesn't stop with pronouns. Language shapes our identity. The words we use to address others, and describe ourselves do impact on how our self-image is formed. Which is fine for adults because we can choose to alter our identity, but it's questionable how much children can do this when they're still forming their initial image. Now, I get that we should be helping that tiny group of people who naturally respond to gender change or have these feelings. That makes sense.. but that isn't this.

    This is parents projecting their complicated world into the vulnerable period of childrens development, by introducing a series of beliefs that are still very much experimental. We know so little about how the overall trans issues affect people in the long term. And we want very young children involved? It's simply fucked up. Fine.. spend another twenty-thirty years applying Trans ideas to Adults, with meticulous research into the positives and negatives, and then, once we know that this is a good thing to consider, then... introduce children to it.

    I'd consider calling it Child abuse to be a bit exaggerated, but not by much. It's short sighted and agenda driven. We should be protecting children from Adult crap, not exposing them to **** that we barely understand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    So before you were saying it is wrong to teach them anything related to sex/gender.

    Now you are saying teach them sex?

    Make up your mind.

    Also worth pointing out AGAIN (maybe someday you will all understand) that the Scottish guidance makes no recommendations on teaching anything. Just made up nonsense in your head for you to get angry at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Good. Spare me the continuous word salad and the various links you repeat only to say we agree on all substantial points.

    It has eventually become clear that you simply don't like being labelled a transphobe, or evidence of why you might be seen as one. It's understandable. Yes, if you are a transphobic asshole (you may be), I cannot compel you to agree.

    Avoid discussing the issue why you might appear so, just skip it, act as if you are being misunderstood, and repeat the word salad that might appear to justify your position. It is obvious that what you believe in your private life has no concern in public policy on trans rights.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




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  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe




  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    The cheek of you calling anybody else disingenuous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    Even if that were true (and it isn't), it wouldn't justify disingenuous comments by @LLMMLL.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    You have been putting words in the mouths of anybody that disagrees with you in an attempt to make their stance look abusive to children.

    That is the very definition of disingenuous. Don't be a little crybaby about it when someone gives you a taste of your own medicine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I don’t think it’s just referring to children by what they say are their preferred pronouns quite covers what people are referring to when they refer to an ideology being imposed upon children as child abuse though.

    Personally, I don’t see the ideology itself as child abuse, I think that’s an histrionic reaction which is generally the “go to” for “ideas which I find abhorrent”. The guidelines are basically an arse-covering exercise for schools to be able to say that they are compliant with their legal obligations, and not much more. In practical terms they don’t actually mean all that much, and in practice they are only likely to be useful for schools which are “preaching to the converted” already so to speak - parents who support the ideology already send their children to schools which support their world views.

    Where I see issues arising is in schools where children are not au fait with the ideology and their parents do not wish to support or endorse the ideology, and do not want their children being coerced to participate in having their own world views undermined by an ideology which makes no sense whatsoever to them.

    I don’t have any issue with schools adopting whatever policies they wish (and in Scotland the running of the schools and what is taught in schools is generally a matter for the management of the schools and parents), but I would be more concerned about how the theory plays out in practice.

    My sister who lives in Scotland was fortunate enough to be able to send her children to a school which is consistent with her values (she would say she reverted to Islam, I would say I don’t care 😂), but I didn’t need her to tell me that the Scottish Education system has been in decline for at least a decade now, so much so that they have withdrawn from most international standards testing, and in that environment it’s no surprise that when their academic standards are dismal, they’ll lean heavily into promoting ideologies like this in education to distract from that reality.

    I think it’s unfair to suggest that any particular community was calling for this or has any particular wish to encourage these ideas. It’s a divisive ideology that’s coming from a political point of view, as opposed to there being any genuine interest or concerns about children’s welfare or education. Teachers were calling for guidelines for years as to how they were supposed to support children who are transgender, these guidelines are of absolutely no use to them as they were aware of most of what’s contained in the guidelines already.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    The abuse of girls has already taken place, even if you don't categorize these guidelines as somehow abusive.

    For instance: in an LA spa recently, a self-declared 52-year old transgender was parading around the women's changing rooms (which included 7-year old girls) with a penis on display. When people started complaining to the staff about the presence of a biological man in the women's changing rooms, they were accused of being transphobic and bigoted.

    If 7-year old girls are now subject to this kind of ideology in changing rooms, goodness knows what else will happen children in years to come if this ideology is allowed to pursue itself unchecked. As I and others have argued in this thread, the introduction of trans-guidance at 4-years old opens the floodgates for wholly avoidable consequences.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The rights of Trans people trump those of everyone else. This is the new reality, unless we see some kind of organised resistance to this movement... which hasn't happened yet.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    The thing is, that the staff were being consistent with their worldview. If, as they believe, a trans person (without surgery) is still a woman, then how could they possibly argue against a trans-woman with a penis walking around changing rooms?

    That trans person is doing exactly what they should be allowed to do, if you accept the trans argument that - even without surgery - you are a woman by virtue of not how you look, but how you feel inside.

    Because the argument rests on emotion rather than falsifiable evidence, there is not much anyone can say (even though we know it to be wrong).

    And this links back to 4-year olds being exposed to the same ideology. Eventually, it should be accepted that trans women with penises should be allowed in changing rooms with 4, 5, 6, or - in the above case - 7 year olds.

    How does the trans activist argue against this? Or are they in favour of this, as it's consistent with the worldview.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    What's disingenuous?

    You have very clearly said that young children should have no education about sex/gender in previous posts.

    You then clearly state that they should only be taught about sex in a recent post.

    Would you like me to provide quotes from you to.prove it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    Boys and girls know the difference between boys and girls, without needing to be "taught" the other exists. That's where I draw the line: let kids be kids.

    As a trans-activist, do you support 52-year old transwomen with penises to use changing rooms with young girls 3-7 years old?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    So let's be clear. I was not being disingenuous at all. I was accurately describing two posts you made.

    Now you are trying to do a quick switch from your false allegation being exposed by bringing up something completely unrelated to the Scottish guidance.

    Nice try but not falling for that one.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "Eventually, it should be accepted that trans women with penises should be allowed in changing rooms with 4, 5, 6, or - in the above case - 7 year olds.

    How does the trans activist argue against this? Or are they in favour of this, as it's consistent with the worldview."

    It was the stated opinion of many trans activists at the time that the Wi Spa incident occurred that little girls should be "taught not to look at people's junk".

    In fairness, that was before it was revealed that the trans woman in question (Darren Merager) was a serial offender with a felony history of indecent exposure convictions, sex offences, burglary... you get the picture.

    Darren claims to be the victim of transphobic harassment. Which might be true, but it might also be true that Darren—a male sexual predator with form—has been gifted a new tool in their arsenal by clueless dolts who would care more about an incorrect pronoun on Twitter than about the real world abuse of women and girls.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    Far from it, I've been entirely consistent - boys, girls, and that's it. Nothing sexual or nothing gender identity related.

    But if you are using that as an excuse to deflect from my legitimate question, that's well within your rights to do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    That is gender identity related. What are you proposing being taught?

    Your question is not legitimate. The thread is about Scottish guidance about the treatment of children.

    Your question was about a spa in LA.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    What starts at 4-years old is just the beginning.

    What happens when we advance to 12-years old and, in the girl's changing rooms at school, a boy walks in - no surgery etc. - and proclaims himself to be a girl. Here, again, we have a situation in which, to be consistent with the trans- worldview, young girls are being exposed to a male penis in what is supposed to be a safe zone for them to change.

    Whether it's the 52-year old in female changing rooms in LA, or the above example in schools, what we are witnessing is the incremental exposure of young girls to penises in what are supposed to be safe spaces for girls.

    So, that's part of the reason why we are against the Scottish guidance. It's not so much what they are introducing but what follows down the line - what has already happened in the LA spa and what is sure to repeat itself elsewhere going forward.

    Target children and more of these kinds of immoral situations will pop up.

    So, are you willing to address this point?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Absolutely. If a trans girl uses the same changing rooms as cis girl then some.cis girls might see the trans girls penis.

    Also if the trans girl uses the boys changing rooms the cis boys might see the trans girls penis.

    Also if you take your kids to the beach they may see naked kids running around and see a penis or a vagina.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So, that's part of the reason why we are against the Scottish guidance. It's not so much what they are introducing but what follows down the line - what has already happened in the LA spa and what is sure to repeat itself elsewhere going forward.

    Err... that's not really my objection. TBH I do think society needs to get past it's shame and disgust about the naked body, and that includes seeing another genders genitalia. I do think young people would have a better future if they weren't saddled with the puritan ideas that many of us were hit with. I do think safety is an issue as the numbers/rates of those with sexual disorders seems to be on the rise, and children of both genders should have an environment that is safe from adult crap, but I don't think nudity is the problem. Once people are fine with seeing genitalia then the problem is gone forever.

    My issue remains with the guidance being used as a way to normalise transgenderism by targeting children, but also the promotion of transgender ideology to children who probably would have no inkling it existed before they're introduced to it.

    I don't accept that transgender beliefs have been accepted by mainstream society, nor have they been backed up by science yet. We don't realistically know the effects of exposing young children to gender change over an extended period of time, nor do we know whether doing so, acts as a gateway to more permanent change such as physical transitioning, which has a range of negatives leading to severe depression to violence to suicide. It's simply too early in the development of trans beliefs to pass it on to children (who wouldn't normally have been interested), since we don't know enough about the overall situation. Bad enough for adults, and likely to be worse for children.

    So.. no.. I'm not bothered by nudity, or exposure to a penis for children. TBH, most children have seen their fathers penis, or their mother naked, and it's only later that they're taught to feel guilt over their own or other peoples bodies. That's one thing that I do believe should be resolved because it doesn't serve any beneficial purpose in a modern society .



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Disagree with you there klaz. I don't think children should be comfortable if someone they don't know or trust exposes their penis or vagina to them, nor should they feel comfortable exposing their penis/vagina around strangers either.

    No guilt involved and not puritanical, it's just better to teach children to have some modesty and respect others too.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    It has come to something that, in 2021, this kind of thing needs to be said.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Perhaps. Personally, I think it's time to leave a lot of that behind us.. still I think it's more of a cultural thing. When I was in Spain, I noticed that a lot of people weren't fazed by nudity, the same way Irish people were. There was a more relaxed attitude towards the naked body, including genitalia. Modesty was still a thing but not the same way as it was in Ireland while I was living here. Maybe that's changed, although I somehow doubt it has.

    Agreed.

    So, they're not girls. They're boys wanting to be girls. Or they're something else entirely. But they're not girls.



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