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4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

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  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    @LLMMLL may correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the argument is that girls are either cis girls or trans girls - different, but both kinds of girls.

    In other words, biology and organs and such matters is effectively irrelevant. What matters is the perception in the mind of the person themselves.

    I don't agree with this, but it appears to be the argument made by the opposition.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But CIS means the gender assigned at birth.. which wouldn't make them trans since the assigned gender matches that of their sex. [I tend to cringe whenever someone tries using the term CIS.. because it's irrelevant. We already have enough language to describe a girl/woman boy/man. This CIS crap really should be shut down whenever it's uttered.)

    A trans girl is not a kind of girl. It's a boy wanting to be a girl. A tomboy would be a kind of girl, because the girl remains a girl irrespective of how she behaves or dresses.

    As for the argument made... it's rubbish because the end desire is that a trans girl would be treated and accepted the same as a girl.. which is impossible with the level of medicine/technology available to us. (since physical, psychological and emotional processes would all need to be changed, along with the acquisition of experience/personal knowledge of living/being as that desired gender)



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    Agreed.

    But you'll have your work cut out trying to persuade @LLMMLL of that.

    I've tried, and failed. I just could not prise a legitimate definition out of @LLMMLL.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    hahaha... There's no chance of convincing LLMMLL of anything. They're (not going to assume any kind of gender) a diehard Trans advocate, and are well represented on every Trans thread to be done on boards.

    TBH They're the perfect example of a trans advocate. So.. no.. I never expect to convince them of anything. 😃 Most times I avoid posting or responding to them because I know (from experience) where the discussion will lead to. There's no point. (And no, that's not any kind of attack on LLMMLL. Actually, I kinda admire just how dedicated they are to the movement)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    What to expect from English people?



  • Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭DarkJager21



    1) It’s women, girls or females - you can stick that cis nonsense where the sun doesn’t shine.

    2) Girls do not have penises


    3) The beach is far different from a changing room and under no circumstances should a male body be in a female only changing area particularly around kids.

    <Mod Snip>

    Post edited by Ten of Swords on


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Who is the trans lobby and why do you need everyone one of them to agree?

    It's random people like yourself. A combo of political lefties looking for a cause i.e. fighting for the marginalized ( that word gets under my skin for some reason), heterosexual cis gendered liberals and progressives, trans people themselves like Sam Smith, etc. As for agreeing I'd think they should get their story straight if they expect to be taken seriously.

    Do you think the "gay lobby" are sending out contradictory messages?

    Yes. On the one hand some say that sexual orientation is on a individual spectrum (I think that's total bollox), and some don't.

    This is just nonsense. There is one person on my work team who has pronouns in their profile and they would have no interest in arguing about trans rights or see themselves as part of a left/right war.

    No the nonsense is stating what your pronoun is when the whole point of pronouns is that you can assume it. If you have a female name, that infers your pronoun, so their is no need to explicitly state your pronoun. You may scoff when people talk about trans 'ideology' but changing the whole point of pronouns is a perfect indicator of an ideology.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No the nonsense is stating what your pronoun is when the whole point of pronouns is that you can assume it. If you have a female name, that infers your pronoun, so their is no need to explicitly state your pronoun. You may scoff when people talk about trans 'ideology' but changing the whole point of pronouns is a perfect indicator of an ideology.

    Good paragraph/explanation.

    It's also an indication of the fear that various people have about the influence of the trans movement. Many businesses have started requiring their staff to be specific about their pronouns, as a gesture to show how inclusive they are. It's the same BS that businesses embraced when the US become hyper PC/Woke (which spread to a lesser extent to the UK and other countries), and employees knew that there were behaviors (or lack of) which would vastly decrease their chance of employment or retaining their employment. Either you play ball, and show your support of inclusivity/diversity or you're a bigot of some kind. So, for many people there is a danger in not displaying pronouns.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Would an activist actually have to know something about their chosen agenda they claim to an activisting for ,

    Like Greta and her legion of teen global warming activists who are active in promoting their agenda ,from social media and social engagement , education , protesting , even the antivax crowd at least try (fail )



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    So the "trans lobby" need to get their story straight.

    Also the "gay lobby" do.

    But the "gay lobby" has been remarkably successful, getting the majority of people to accept something that even 15 years ago seemed impossible.

    So why exactly does anyone "need to get their story straight". To make YOU more comfortable?

    The arguments anti-trans posters make on this thread range from rambling incoherence to vaguely sophisticated. The anti-trans posters disagree on many many issues among themselves. And that's not even taking into account the TERF posters who all left boards. If they came back the anti-trans group would be even more diverse with different beliefs and aims.

    Get your own house in order before criticising anybody else.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah. This is why I’m glad I don’t work for anyone else. There is no way I’d be putting pronouns in anything.

    Pronouns are words that other people use when talking about me. The idea that I should have any control over someone else’s speech in that way is ludicrous self-aggrandising nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    ...and don't get me started on the disabled lobby, asking me to stop calling them 'retards'. I don't care if it's insulting to them. The idea that they should have any control over my speech in that way is such self-aggrandizing nonsense...

    When you really think about it, I'm the real victim here, I'm the one with the real hardship.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,926 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You do appear to be struggling alright, but I wouldn’t call anyone a retard in any case, nor would I capitulate to their manipulative behaviour. Far more likely I’d simply ignore them, and if they persisted, I’d likely be less polite in my refusal to capitulate to their manipulative behaviour.

    You keep trying to present two completely different concepts as though they’re the same thing. Preferred pronouns has nothing to do with either being transgender, nor has the idea anything to do with being disabled, nor is anyone a victim if they cannot coerce people into behaving as they want people to behave.

    In any circumstances, people are still entitled to say “No” when anyone makes demands of them that to them are unreasonable, or offensive, or which they have a fundamental objection to on the basis of their own beliefs, or the fact that they do not share your beliefs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Exactly.

    I do not have to agree to stop calling people by the names I like calling them 'r****d' 'f****t' 'k*****r', I could go on.

    The idea that the disabled, gay and traveller lobby can control my speech in that way is such self-aggrandizing nonsense. It's Nazism when you think about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,926 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You clearly haven’t thought about it if that’s your argument. Your behaviour could constitute harassment, whereas a refusal to use a person’s preferred pronouns, does not.

    One cannot be compelled to use preferred pronouns when referring to themselves either. Fairly simple concept to grasp, though to give you a real-life example as it were, Jessica Yanniv was of the same impression as yourself that they thought they too could compel people to behave in a way which violated their conscience and was an unreasonable imposition upon them -


    In October 2019, the Human Rights Tribunal dismissed three complaints by Yaniv, noting that “human rights legislation does not require a service provider to wax a type of genitals they are not trained for and have not consented to wax.” The Tribunal also found that the complainant Jessica Yaniv had “engaged in improper conduct” and had filed complaints “for an improper purpose”.

    The Tribunal found that Yaniv has a “grievance” against certain ethnic groups and targeted them out of racial animus to “punish” them for their cultural and religious views. Yaniv has made derogatory public comments about East Indians and Sikhs, as well as immigrants generally.

    In one such comment cited by the Tribunal, Yaniv stated:

    We have a lot of immigrants here who gawk and judge and aren’t exactly the cleanest people. They’re also verbally and physically abusive, that’s one main reason why I joined a girls gym, cause I DON’T want issues with these people, nor do I want anything to do with them in anyway, shape or form. They lie about ****, they’ll do anything to support their own kind and make things miserable for everyone else.

    The Justice Centre represented five British Columbian estheticians last year at the BC Human Rights Tribunal. Three estheticians faced complaints that proceeded to litigation in July 2019, for declining to perform waxing services for Yaniv. Two complaints were withdrawn.

    The first complaint hearing against Blue Heaven Beauty Lounge and its owner, Mrs. Sandeep Benipal, was heard on July 4, 2019. Benipal and her husband are adherents to the Sikh religion. Ms. Benipal is not trained to wax male genitals, and for religious and personal reasons was not comfortable doing so. Blue Heaven Beauty Lounge does not advertise waxing services for male genitalia. “It is not something I am comfortable or trained to do,” explained Banipal in her response to the complaint.



    Can you understand now why you’re mistaken? You’re so zoned in on what you refer to as “trans rights”, that you don’t appear to be cognisant of the fact that everyone is entitled to human rights, and your calling anyone a transphobic asshole on the basis that they refuse to acknowledge anyone’s preferred pronouns is far less likely to be viewed as reasonable behaviour, and far more likely to be viewed as harassment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    I get called an 'ableist a**hole" for calling people born with mental disabilities "r****d' all the time. Normally I make the argument that it was a medical term and it is a biological fact that they were born 'r*****ed'. The unbelievable thing is it's clear that its me who is being harrassed. I wouldnt wish my hardship on my worst enemy. Thrown in my face everytime the paralympics is on. It's like living under a Nazi regime.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's like living under a Nazi regime.

    Exaggerate much? In a Nazi regime, they would be dead, and there would be no need for such a term.

    As for the rest, it's gibberish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,926 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Is there something preventing you from keeping your opinions to yourself? You seem to be overlooking that point. What you’re attempting to do is compel anyone who does not share your beliefs to behave as though they do, and to express a belief which they do not hold.

    You’re trying to equate a refusal to comply with your demands with harassment, or claiming that you’re being treated unfairly or you are the victim of discrimination because you cannot compel other people to share your beliefs. That’s why I gave you the example of a person who was engaging in the same sort of behaviour - you’d be doing the same thing in seeking out people who you know don’t share your views in order to have them refer to you using your preferred pronouns, when you have the same right as anyone else to ignore people who don’t share your views.

    It’s also why the complainant in the Lee v Ashers case lost their case -


    They held that no-one could be forced to promote a belief or opinion they did not believe in or profoundly disagreed with.




  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    You speak as if the trans community is some paragon of ideological unity.

    There are many trans- people who vehemently disagree with almost all of your views.

    Blaire White, Rose of Dawn, Debbie Hayton - all of whom are prominent trans women who agree with pretty much everything I and others have argued here. And these are just a handful of the most prominent examples. Admittedly

    What we invariably find is that many of the advocates of trans ideology are not trans themselves, but speak on behalf of the entire trans- community. Those trans- women that disagree with the narrative given ex cathedra are regarded as heretics or "not truly trans". How inclusive!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Tell me about it. I dont seek out r*****ds. It is only when I encounter them, or are forced to interact with them that I refuse to change my language to suit their self-aggrandizing nonsense. The hardship is unbelievable. Unfortunately, can't avoid it these days. For the record, same goes for the 'n****ers' and 'f****ts'.

    And you wouldnt believe how many times I get called racist or homophobic, which is clearly offensive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,926 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Well that’s your own business really, same as it’s entirely your own business how you deal with it when you can’t compel other people to say what you want them to say, express opinions you want them to express, support ideas you want them to support, or do anything you want them to do.

    It’s got very little to do with the topic of this thread apart from the fact that it’s being suggested to schools in Scotland as part of the guidelines that they encourage everyone in the school to participate in an ideology which they do not support, and the guidelines are suggesting that while being mindful of the rights of other children and adults, promoting the ideology takes priority above all else.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's a false equivalence, and TBH it's quite disturbing that you would consider not using preferred pronouns to be the same as calling someone a retard, or ****.

    Morgans, are you Trans, and if you are, what kind of trans would you be? Genuinely curious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    I get offended when I'm being called a homophobe and a racist. But I've no idea why disabled people are offended when I call them "r*****s", or why gay people are offended when I call them "f*****s". It's not my fault they were born that way. It's my strongly held belief and no lobby is going to force me to change it with their self-aggrandizing nonsense.

    Here's Jordan Petersen getting the point.




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    I'm not trans, but I can imagine a world in which I might have been.



  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭Anne_Widdecombe


    That's disingenuous.

    There's a difference between making a cake for a gay person and making a cake with a political/social slogan that you fundamentally disagree with.

    For instance, a baker would make a cake for a black person but, if some white person came in and asked for the slogan, "Black Lives Don't Matter!", to appear on the cake, the baker would be within his rights to reject the cake.

    Of course, this has nothing to do with the 4-year old guidance, but it's worth throwing this in for the sake of balance. I won't comment further on it beyond this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    If there's one thing good to come from this thread is the new word that Anne's learned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland


    When I was 4 years old, I couldn't even change the radio channel.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,926 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You’re not referring to any strongly held belief in the examples you give though? You’re just trying to maintain you have the right to call people whatever you like, when nobody is making that argument, because nobody has the right to call anyone whatever they like.

    You’re arguing that people should be able to compel anyone to say something they don’t believe, in this case that they should be compelled to use preferred pronouns. I’ll give you another real world example of what happens when people try to compel other people to do something, and how it generally works out for them -





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