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The Ivermectin discussion

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The most easily quantifiable way to describe the indefensible lack of “approval” for ivermectin in COVID-19 is to note the actual amount of supportive clinical trials evidence in COVID-19, both randomized (31) and observational (32), including more than 26,000 patients with the near majority of all studies finding at least some important benefit with treatment.

    Then compare that evidence to the average amount of evidence relied upon to formulate the treatment guidelines of the Infectious Disease Society of America:

    In a 2010 review of 65 of its most recent guidelines, the IDSA found that 50% of guideline recommendations were made without any trials evidence in support and were termed “expert opinion only.”

    Another 31% of guideline recommendations were based solely on observational studies, while only 16% of all recommendations were based on at least one randomized controlled trial.

    In other words, the number of legitimate clinical trials for ivermectin have been far superior to those for the IDSA’s treatment guidelines.

    Furthermore, ivermectin was approved for the treatment of scabies by the World Health Organization based only on 10 randomized controlled trials, including 852 patients. Despite the fact that these trials found ivermectin inferior to the cream it was being tested against, it still won approval due to its low cost and ease of administration.

    I am no medical expert and will no pretend to be one. But the above and censorship of ivermectin and the disingenuous reporting and statements by the authorities and media by referring to the animal version of ivermectin are all signals to me that ivermectin works



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    When you start a post in such a strident manner you are clearly not open to to any other explanations. For all the claimed studies it is still unproven and has been observed again and again on this thread there are a lot of issues with these studies. Until it produces a large enough trial where it is generally agreed the data seems to show some benefit it will continue to see it as an animal drug.


    And if you believe it works you are free to take it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    Interesting paper here published two days ago addressing the concerns of the BMJ Evidence Based Medicine regarding ivermectin

    https://osf.io/peqcj/



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Edit - forget it



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    After reading this, I have to check road traffic signals. Red might be green by now, not even mentioning orange one..



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well I printed it on paper and it had to be published for me to read it.

    There is no need for new data.

    I have no medical expertise though I was interested in the concerns raised by the BMJ. So I found it interesting as it addressed those concerns whilst making sense to me. Maybe for others too, so I shared it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I see the Indian government has just revised their list of essential medicines to include ivermectin used in Covid treatment. Another signal that ivermectin works against covid


    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    That's a price control mechanism.

    They've deleted oral contraceptives from the list. By your logic, that means the pill doesn't work and we will soon be awash with unplanned pregnancies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    Covid is an RNA virus, the link beside that is covid specific.

    I'm neither for nor against ivermectin btw, if somebody says drinking petrol helps, I couldn't give a fiddlers, let them try it.

    I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest there is not even a basic idea of how it would work, a quick googling of the mechanism shows at least a few potential mechanisms. Maybe you're looking for more detailed chemical formulas or something, but if I found that I wouldn't even know what I'm looking at.

    It's a human drug, with known safe human doses, if I had some handy when I get covid, would I take it? Sure. Why wouldn't you? Do you have a mechanism for how it could hurt?

    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8203399/



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes they reduced the price for drugs. They have not deleted oral contraceptives from the list. They delete one specific oral contraceptive (Ormeloxifene). So your point is moot.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,710 ✭✭✭✭astrofool




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    You're seeing what you want to see here.

    You said that being on this list is proof that ivermectin works.

    Logically then, being taken off this list must mean the opposite, ie that those drugs don't work. Right?

    But they've removed atenolol, which millions of people take for blood pressure. They've removed ethinylestradiol and norethisterone, a common birth control.

    These drugs haven't stopped working, they just don't need to control the price anymore.

    Conversely, this isn't evidence that ivermectin works, it just means that the Indian government doesn't want to be paying through the nose for it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ok as you say let’s use logic

    To add a drug to the essential medicines list there can be many reasons, like cost, availability etc. Though one reason that must exist for it to be added is that it at the very least works. Then factors like cost, availability come into play.

    To delete a drug from the essential medicines list you say it must not work. When in fact there are many reasons to delete a drug from the list even though it does work such as a cheaper alternative, more readily available alternative, better results from alternative. in all cases the deleted drug works.

    With your logic the Indian government added ivermectin to its essential medicines list even though it does not work but because it is cheap.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,598 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It works against parasites - proven.

    People are buying it hoping it works against covid - which in unproven.

    But which pushes up demand.

    To claim its place on the list is proof it works against covid is utterly without foundation from what you have posted so far.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So you are saying the Indian government have added a drug (Ivermectin for Covid) to their list of essential medicines that does not work?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The problem with this guy is that he has never, and I mean ever, not even one time, in all of the time he's been posted across thousands and thousands of tweets, said anything that deviates from the mainstream narrative of the moment. Not even when that narrative has later been proven wrong. So he's a great source for finding out "what is current mainstream thinking on X Covid thing", but very poor if your question is "what is the validity of mainstream thinking on X Covid thing".



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,598 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Its works as an anti parasitic medicine and has been on the WHO list of essential medicines for this reason - before covid.

    That the Indian government added it to the list is a function of demand, its not necessarily a statement of support for it as a covid treatment.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The article clearly states ivermectin used in Covid treatment. Are you saying it does not work but because there is high demand the Indian government added it to their list of essential medicines?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,598 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I dont know if it works against covid as a preventative.

    I am very sceptical it works as a treatment for covid given the failure of the recent 1000+ patient McMaster trial in Brazil.

    It is a proven anti parasitic medicine and on the WHO list for that reason.

    I see no evidence its presence on Indias list is for any reason other thsn demand.

    The article you link is not evidence - scan the list for Ivermectin and it's listed as an anti parasitic med.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    Ah cool So if your diet is good you have little to fear from Covid. If not and your diet is **** take quercetin vit d vit c zinc and you will be fine.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The article clearly states ivermectin used in Covid treatment. The fact that it is also referred to as an anti parasitic is true, because it is. You say you see no evidence for Ivermectin being added to the Indian list of essential medicines for any reason other than demand. I find it hard to believe the Indian government added ivermectin to its list of essential medicines because of demand only. If true they have a lot to answer for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,598 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The article lists the essential medicines added and I have copied and pasted this from the article.

    "Ivermectin (anti-parasitic)"

    Its has been on the WHO list of essential meds for years before Covid for that reason. Seems important to ensure in India it is still available for that proven purpose.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,710 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    No, get a vaccine and there's a very high chance you'll be fine.

    Also, live healthily, just because.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Last I read, 88% of Irish adults are fully vaccinated. Who exactly are you preaching to here? The final 12%? Do you think Ivermectin is stopping Irish people getting vaccinated?

    Feels to me like a lot of people import not only social issues but also statistics. Like some partisan battle is happening on their doorstep. There'll be a thread on here calling for Irish Walmart to stop selling guns soon.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The more I think about this, the less I get it. Like if a loved one is dying in the hospital, you try everything.

    Until it's absolutely 100% proven to do absolutely nothing, why such an extreme reaction to in a country with no problems with vaccine uptake? I can't imagine telling someone to not take horse medicine, them dying, and it coming out later that it increases chance of survival even a little bit.

    Like it doesn't even seem to be an either or. You can take it and if it works, it works. People take medicine with terrible side effects all the time hoping it will save them, and does Ivermectin even have those?

    Would people here really mock someone in hospital for taking it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,710 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    That's not how medicine works, every treatment isn't thrown at a patient just because 1 might work, similarly, if an unapproved medicine is used and there's a bad side effect the hospital and doctors are then liable for damages. Otherwise, we'd be using all the phase 2 medicines that look promising against Covid-19 rather than waiting for approval, some look very promising and are passing properly run trials.

    Invermectin only comes up because it's already approved for parasite infection using a few doses, to treat Covid-19, the dosage and efficacy needs to be worked out via trials and if efficacious, go for approval.

    Then you have the difference of using it as a prophylaxis vs. a treatment and on top of that, most of the self administers are usually in non-vulnerable groups anyway which skews the success data.

    Is Israel using it? They're usually not shy in ploughing ahead with something if it might work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,850 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    "Further validation may be required to confirm a direct, causal link between diet and COVID-19 illness severity"

    You could probably do a survey that smart phone users are less likely to end up with severe illness, or Xbox & PS users or people who vape... basically when you take a trend that mainly favors young people you will see a less likely severe covid outcome. Did you know that people who witnessed the moon landings are more prone to severe covid outcome than those who witnessed 9/11?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Theres a bit more to it than that.

    I listened to some doctors recently who said avoid meat when you have covid infection for 2 weeks to reduce inflammation.

    We eat too much meat in the west.



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