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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    The Fennelly report makes it sound like small amounts of cash, clothes, tobacco etc. are pretty common things to give informants and it says there is no indication of any misconduct around this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,159 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    'The handling of informants, in the main criminals, is a thorny and complex one for all police forces.

    Following the behaviour of some gardaí and their informants in Donegal, and the subsequent damning findings of the Morris Tribunal, the entire system was overhauled.

    A new system, the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (CHIS), was put in place in 2006 and was modelled on similar systems abroad, including in Britain.

    Under the new system all informants, or human intelligence sources, had to be passed on to a central system, where their names and details were handed over.'

    2006 so this case is prior.



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Practically every report, commission or tribunal criticises but stops short of saying laws were broken or illegal acts committed. The people producing the report are instilled there for that very reason. Look at the mother and baby homes commission, 800 dead babies bodies were found in a sewage tank and still the report did nothing to bring justice, in fact it was the exact opposite. Moriarty Tribunal another example.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Brings us back to the fact her house was on a shared access road, so either

    A) The killer was looking for her specifically

    B) The killer was looking to go on up the hill to Alfie's house, (this Garda story that Bailey said there might be a party on at Alfie's hints that he might not be the only one expecting that).

    C) The killer was off track altogether and just happened upon her.

    One of these 3 has to be true.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Its quite relevant what brought the murderer to this neck of the woods.. This location could be described as the back end of nowhere, it's as isolated as you get.

    What motivated somebody to call out to such a remote spot?

    Bailey was out drinking till the early hours prior to the murder, he went to bed briefly before getting up again.. Would it be reasonable to suggest he would set off to visit Sophie with amorous intentions sometime after 2am in the middle of winter?? It's a stretch to consider he would knock at somebody's door unannounced at such an ungodly hour - even for Bailey.

    The killer may have been a party goer heading up to Alfie's - Albeit a little late, it's a possibility. It's plausible that Sophie heard the gate being opened, came out to investigate and met her demise... But would a standard party goer / stoner, really resort to such violence over an upset, five foot nothing french woman??

    The lone opportunist.. Was Sophie in the wrong place at the wrong time? I doubt it.

    Could Bailey have been looking to see if there was a party going on at Alfie's - It's very possible. But it seems to me that Sophie tied her boots up with the intension of going outside, what has she seen? She didn't sense any danger, and must have felt confident in confronting whatever situation she was looking at.

    Why did Sophie, in a blind panic not run up to Alfie's were she knew people where living? She was a fit, lean girl, and could have ran to Alfie's, thrown a rock through the window and alerted everybody to the danger she was in..

    So many ifs and buts..



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Bailey was about 40 years old I think at the time of the murder, so is it conceivable that a 40 year old man got up in the dead of night on December 23rd and walked 2 or 3KM to Sophie's house when it's absolutely freezing cold out. Its late December and on the coast of Cork, I'd imagine temperatures are below freezing.

    Kealfeada Bridge where there was also a potential spotting is also about 2KM in the opposite direction of Baileys House.

    So is it believable that Bailey walked 2 or 3KM to Sophie's House, killed her and then walked about 2KM in the opposite direction.

    Or maybe he turned up at her house freezing cold and angered not to be let in?



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Does anyone know how long Ian and Jules were in a relationship at the point of the murder? And did Ian Bailey have any kind of record for adultery or cheating on Jules? I feel this info is kind of overlooked.

    Surely a man who has the confidence and brass neck to turn up to a strangers house in the middle of the night looking for his bit has a history of that kind of thing.

    Hard to believe if he's a man who has no past of cheating that on that particular night he chanced his arm to see what he could get, then resorted to murder when he was turned down.

    These actions would seem to be committed by a man who wasn't used to being told no, so do we know of Bailey having any past history of infidelity?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Anyone who believes gardai corruption or cover ups cant or didnt happen should look at the story of the murder of Fr Niall Molloy - there was a documentary on this on RTE last night and part 2 is on next week. Its not inconceivable that a cover up didnt happen in the case of Sophies murder either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    You're underestimating the distance.

    It's more than double the distance and just short of an hour's walk.

    Via Ballyrisode / Kealfada Bridge it would be an hour and a half.

    I wouldn't think it's believable.

    If one were to go down that line of thinking there were potential suspects much closer than that, but it is better to try follow what evidence there is than random speculation.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,335 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    For me the most reasonable scenario if Bailey is guilty is that they had briefly met and talked a couple of times previously, she had given him an open-ended invitation to call over for a cup of tea to talk about poetry and he, possibly believing stereotypes about 'French birds' read way too much into it...



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    And if someone else is guilty what's the most reasonable scenario?



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,900 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    154 pages, and for the last 125 it's going round and around in circles.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Is this the Bill Fuller ;

    "On the 20 February 1997 Bill Fuller, his partner and child had gone to the causeway at Kealfadda Bridge in order to pursue his own investigation of the murder. He was with his wife and child. He saw a man whom he thought to be Bailey and this caused them to run away in blind panic believing the man had seen them. They ran a considerable

    distance until they reached Toormore Beach where they ran along a lane way which led out onto the roadway to Goleen. Screaming and roaring they ran in front of the first car to approach them. It was being driven by a Ms. Breda O’Reilly. Her initial reaction was not to stop, but when she saw that Bill Fuller was carrying a three-year-old child under his arm she thought the child was sick. When Ms. O’Reilly lowered the car window both Bill and Kerri Fuller screamed at her that the murderer Ian Bailey was down the road, pointing towards Kealfadda Bridge. Ms. O’Reilly drove them directly to Goleen where Ms. O’Reilly contacted the Gardaí. In her statement Ms. O’Reilly describes the

    terrible state of shock and fear that the Fullers were in and she stated that they feared for their own safety.

    It transpires that a local farmer was working near their van that day and they had mistaken him for Ian Bailey in their high state of apprehension."

    About as reliable as our Marie I'say.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,335 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I haven't followed the story particularly closely but I'm not aware of any other specific suspect with the weight of circumstantial evidence against him that there is against Bailey and

    it is better to try follow what evidence there is than random speculation.

    Though the circumstances of the crime suggest someone with a personal/sexual motivation...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,248 ✭✭✭nc6000


    That sounds like a ridiculous story, they thought they saw IB so ran away terrified and flagged down a passing car to bring them to safety, why not just go back to their own car.

    I wonder what they would have done if they ran into him around town. 🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Thats because Gardai refused to look at people who weren't Bailey, rather than there being no other suspects.

    Plenty of people gave statements and info regarding other potential suspects but because the info wasn't about Bailey the guards chose not to follow up.

    A travel agent in Galway that Sophie had previously booked with said that on the morning her body was found a French man came into the travel agents and looked for the first flight back to France, he also looked for the number of B&Bs in West Cork as he had left early and not paid. Gardai never looked anymore into it and never took a statement from the travel agents, maybe years later they did but I'm not sure.

    I wonder if anyone has ever asked owners of B&Bs in West Cork at that time period if that happened.

    Some will pass it off as Gardai being lazy or incompetent, others might look at it that gardai were suppressing info and statements that didn't implicate Ian Bailey..

    I think the travel agent im talking about was Maurice Sweeney or McSweeney or thereabouts if anyone wants to read about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    The case has gone round and round in circles for 25 years, not sure if you were expecting boards.ie to solve the murder



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    IMO if its not Bailey either her husband had her killed or an ex-lover perhaps. People will argue that a hitman wouldn't have killed her so brutally but if he was travelling from France it would have been very hard for the person to bring a gun or knife.

    Her husband married again within a year or so after the murder to a woman he was already having an affair with I believe, it would be interesting to see if Sophie would have been entitled to half her husbands money in a divorce. Keep in mind her husband was a rich, famous movie producer in France.

    There has been some speculation that Sophie also had a big life insurance premium but I don't think that's ever been mentioned anywhere official.

    Theres also reason to believe Sophie knew she was under threat and that's why she went to Ireland in the first place. She had practically begged several friends and family to travel with her but as it was so close to Christmas nobody had the time. A poetry book was also left open on a eerie poem, I believe about a woman dying or being killed in a foreign country.


    Sophie was also known to have had several affairs, and there's some evidence or testimony to point out that someone was with her on that trip. She stopped in a shop or petrol station on her way from the airport to Cork and an attendant said she was with a man I think.

    Marie Farrell also claims that while Sophie was in her shop a sallow skinned foreign man was waiting across the road from her and followed Sophie once she left the shop. Marie Farrell has also recently ID'd this person after Jim Sheridan showed her several photos of men from France who were close to Sophie or associates of Sophies husband. Of course Farrells reliability comes down to a matter of personal opinion.

    Could it be that Sophie told her lover to keep 10 or 20 paces behind her so the locals wouldn't see them together, with locals knowing this man wasn't her husband? Would this also stack up with a man leaving a B&B without paying on the morning of her body being discovered...

    Perhaps Sophie waited until the cover of darkness for her lover to turn up at the cottage so locals wouldn't see.

    I'm just theorising obviously, im still not personally decided one way or the other whether it was Bailey or not. All I know is under law there is presently nowhere near enough evidence to send a man to prison for life IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Just evidence of how fearful some locals were of Bailey. It is easy for the modern day keyboard warrior to cast a cold eye on the events 25 years later. However if you lived locally at the time, you had someone in your rural midst (whether you thought it was Bailey or somebody else) who was capable of turning up on your doorstep in the middle of the night and battering you to death. That`s the reality. Imagine how fearful Alfie and Shirley must have been afterwards in their isolation once everything settled down. The anecdotal story that years later Shirley let slip at a dinner party that Bailey came to their door on the night of the murder may not be so far fetched.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    I should add there's also the theory that she was ratting on Alfie Lyons her neighbour and Bill Fuller (I think) regarding their drug dealing or growing operation.

    Some people have also speculated that Alfie Lyons could have perhaps had a previous life working in American intelligence. Brought about by the fact Lyons could speak several languages including Russian.

    Were guards or government shipping drugs into Ireland via the coast of West Cork? People might think this is farfetched but there's a long history of governments supplying drugs to its citizens, just look at Crack Cocaine in America, weed also.


    Was Alfie Lyons in cahoots with guards or government shipping drugs into the country via West Cork. Was Sophie opening her mouth about Alfies drug dealing or going to guards?

    With the way the case was handled and the amount of garda corruption, is it beyond the realms of imagination that Sophie went to the guards about Alfies drugs and the guards told Alfie about this?

    Again, im just theorising and trying to answer your question as best as possible. I'm undecided on what actually happened to her.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Even though there didn't appear to be any evidence of any sexual aspect to the assault / murder?

    All that can reasonably be said is that at some time between her phone call with her husband shortly before midnight and the discovery of her body the following morning at around 10am, that she had been assaulted and murdered by a person or persons unknown.



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭CowgirlBoots


    What makes you think Ian Bailey is any more reliable than Marie Farrell?



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    But then you'd have to ask why would someone choose to live their lives in fear knowing they had the evidence to send the murderer away for life?



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,900 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    As if restating everything that has been said at least 50 times before is going to enlighten anyone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Isn't that the whole point of a discussion and thread? Some people are new to the thread and the murder, hearing about it for the first time due to recent podcasts and documentaries.

    Should we just have one post that says the murder is unsolved and leave it there?



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,900 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    Or people could read the first 30 pages and realise it's all been said before, multiple times?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    That was on the 20th of February, Bill Fuller believed IB had confessed to him that he was the murderer a couple of weeks previously and IB had been arrested on the 10th and then very publicly released shortly afterwards. It's understandable that he was terrified if he thought IB was the killer and that he may have believed Bill Fuller had told the gardai about what Bill believed was a confession.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    I think they met around 1989 or 1990 but can't be sure. Three women made statements that IB made unwanted advances towards them while he was with Jules.

    Collette Gallagher said she stayed at the studio one night and while she was asleep IB got into bed beside her and started rubbing her leg. She said Jules Thomas then came into the room and she and IB had an argument, Collette protested her innocence. She grabbed her clothes and ran up to the main house to get dressed. She claims that JT then came back to the house and said something about IB doing worse things to her and lifted her skirt and shirt to show bruises along her leg and side. The DPP thought this was just having a bit of craic.

    Another woman said she was at a party and IB grabbed her, lifted her up and asked her to wrap her legs around him. When she asked him to stop he let her go. The DPP thought this was just having a bit of craic too.

    One of Jules' daughters claimed that when she was 18 IB made a pass at her while driving one day.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭drumm23


    He probably isn't. They're both crackers. But then you can't hold Ian's "confessions" as proof against him then either really.

    I do think Farrell has to be totally ignored- she brings nothing but confusion. I maintain that, even if IB did it - MF did not see him that night.



This discussion has been closed.
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