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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    I just think it's extremely unlikely. It's possible but unlikely. She had time to get up, put her boots and a dressing gown on, go downstairs and open the door. She was alerted to someone outside well in advance. Hobnail MacFist has already messed this up before he even got there since there was no sign of an attempted break in. Maybe Hobnail drove a Harley Davidson.

    If a hired killer was serious, they are hardly expecting to lure a woman alone in a remote house outside during the night. If they saw a light on and knew they had been heard they would be gone, sure wouldn't Daniel have told them she has a phone right beside the bed to raise the alarm?

    Daniel went to Cork and spoke to the gardai after the murder.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Here's Daniel's statement to French police. He makes no bones about the previous problems in their marriage.


    I am the husband of Sophie Bouniol, who died on 23.12.1996, in the Schull area of Ireland.

    She was my associate, but from 1988, she left her work and our relationship became more intimate, we began to share a life and some years later, I married her.

    Sophie was very dynamic. She was a young impulsive woman, sometimes to the point of being aggressive and would not be in the habit of letting herself be walked on.

    In effect she was more than a tough character, with a strict moral code, who feared nothing.

    She rather avoided the world of society and gossip and preferred the chic and popular quarters where she felt more at ease. She was passionate about African art and had produced a programme on African bondage, which was transmitted at the beginning of December 1996.

    I have to say, that like all couples, disputes arose, because Sophie was not an easy person to live with. In those moments she would not hesitate to leave our home and go to her close confidante, her cousin Alexandra, who lives in Geneva.

    She was equally very close to Agnes Thomas, who was indeed a confidante. If our life as a couple was ­sometimes not without hitches, she still decided to have a child and had ceased to use any form of ­contraceptive.

    She expressed the desire about four years ago, to purchase a house in Ireland, in a wild and isolated area, in keeping with her character.

    I therefore bought, at her request and in her name, for I think 400,000 French Francs (about €61,000), a house situated in the immediate proximity to Fastnet Lighthouse.

    Personally, I only went there once, about three or four years ago and I was able to appreciate the beauty of the place.

    Sophie has told me how she loved long walks in the Irish countryside, with her books, it was her favourite pastime when she holidayed there.

    She used to go there three or four times a year, to holiday for a week with friends, relatives or children.

    She was the mother of a boy from a previous marriage, Pierre Baudey, aged about 15 years. During her absences, the house was maintained by a woman from the village who was called Josie.

    Because of her professional life, Sophie had only been able to go to her Irish house once, in the spring, much to her regret. She had therefore, decided to holiday there at the end of December, during a slack period in her work.

    However, beginning on 25th December, she had to return to France, to accompany me to Dakar, to visit friends.

    She left Paris on Wednesday, 20th December, about 9.30am, for Dublin or Cork, I am not exactly sure. I did not accompany her to the airport.

    During her holidays in Ireland, she would call me every day and often very late in the evening. She did not detract from that habit and called me every day and even several times a day, without ever, for one moment, intimating any problem.

    On Sunday 22nd December, I was in my second home in Ambax, in Haute-Garonne, and between 11.30pm and midnight, French time, I had a call from Sophie.

    I was however in a work meeting with my associates in Unifrance and I indicated to Sophie that I would call her, which I did about 12 minutes later.

    When I made contact, I immediately noticed in her voice, that she was on the point of falling asleep and that she was in bed.

    I think that during the conversation, she told me that.

    The conversation lasted a few minutes and dealt with trivialities and on the visit she had made during the day to Mr and Mrs Ungerer, who live a few kilometres from her house.

    She got to know Mr Ungerer last April and had been won over by his personality and his talents as a cartoonist. I think that he is the author of cartoons for children, but with a style more suited to adults.

    According to what she told me, she had returned home about 9.30pm, I suppose the Ungerers had kept her for dinner. If not, she would have gone to a pub for a sandwich or would have had a piece of cheese and a glass of red wine.

    Clearly, she was very happy with this visit and had been very ‘taken’ by Mr Ungerer, to such an extent that they formed a work project together.

    I am saying that in a telephone call that I received on the morning, my wife had told me she had finally intended to return to France on 24th December and that she had been able to get a seat on a flight arriving in Toulouse at 8.00pm, though she had initially anticipated returning on 25th December.

    There was no particular reason for this change of plan and it was agreed that I would meet her at Toulouse-Blagnac, on the arrival of the Aer Lingus flight.

    During the last telephone conversation Sophie did not make any reference to any particular plan.

    I felt she was already in her bed and was tired. I say that to my knowledge, she did not take sleeping pills. In her Irish house, Sophie would sleep wearing a night dress, T-shirt, pyjamas or other such. I know that she had communication with the occupants of two other houses.

    There was no history with the English people who lived there. In the case of an altercation, Sophie had such a temperament that she could fly into a rage and was not the type to offer no resistance.

    Equally, and in the same vein, I’m saying, that because of her character, my wife would not hide from any noise outside, but would rather go out to investigate. I had been able to verify that several times.

    She used to frequent the local pub, whose ambience was agreeable to her, as in Paris, where she used to frequent the popular cafés.

    I learned on Monday 23 December, from a news bulletin on television, that the body of my wife was found close to the house. A few hours later I was informed by the Irish authorities.

    I have absolutely no idea as to the perpetrator of the crime and do not see any possible motive for such an act, other than it being an act of violence.

    At no moment did she speak of receiving or inviting anybody after my telephone call.

    I do not at the minute wish to say anything more.

    I do not have it in mind to return to Ireland. I am ready to receive here in Paris, police officers dealing with the case, if they deem it necessary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I think you are assuming that every hitman has graduated from hitman university and knows the game inside out. I dont think its like that in real life!😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    If the idea is it was her husband, and who else would want to hire a hitman, he would go with Hobnail MacFist?

    What's the plan Hobnail?

    Hobnail go to house, Hobnail shake big gate. Woman get scared. Hobnail see woman. Hobnail kill that woman.

    Excellent, I love it! The cheque is in the post.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,693 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    No ex-UVF/IRA hitman,

    only the best for Daniel; James Bond;




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Do you even read the replies on this thread? Daniel was on the phone to her late that night. He could have told her he was sending someone to do xyz. She opened the door to him in good faith, as arranged.

    Your posts are getting a little hysterical here. What's with the Hobnail MacFist nonsense?



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    I accept your points of view... But who said the peeper was looking into the windows???

    What if the knicker sniffer was calling to the house on the assumption that Sophie was in bed.. I read somewhere she nearly always left the doors unlocked..

    So our man rolls up, looking for the laundry basket, fully expecting to sample another delight, when Sophie hears him and comes down stairs..

    She see's the gusset connoisseur through the window, knows him, and shouts after him...

    He returns to the cottage to beg her not to say anything, she refuses, he panic's and clobbers her the first time.. She runs... You know the rest.

    Absolutely far out theory... Yet no other theory has been proven yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    He hadn't been to the house in years. If I rang my wife and said, look there's a guy coming to look at a pipe/return a book I borrowed from the library/deliver flowers at 1am, would you mind meeting him at the gate? She would think I've lost my marbles. Daniel had no local contacts and Sophie dealt with all matters related to the house directly with Josephine.

    The problem with the 'shure I'll have a go at it' hitman theory is that you get as long a sentence for conspiracy to murder as you do for actually going over there and doing it yourself. So you not only have to trust that the person won't take your money and head off to the Bahamas, you have to trust with 100% confidence they won't get caught, leave evidence, be identified, have any financial or communication links to you or tell the police everything if it goes wrong. So no, I think the idea he would go with some unknown ex-paramilitary guy who makes it up as he goes along is extremely, vanishingly remote.

    Daniel lived in France, so he would have to contact someone here or someone in France, get the deal organised, get the payment organised and trust every single person in that chain with 100% certainty. It's not plausible. It's B-movie stuff.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If I rang my wife and said, look there's a guy coming to look at a pipe/return a book I borrowed from the library/deliver flowers at 1am, would you mind meeting him at the gate? She would think I've lost my marbles.

    Your wife isn't Sophie Tuscon du Plantier though is she? And you are not a world famous jet setting movie producer.

    These hires do happen in murder cases. Have happened here in Ireland too.

    There would be many go betweens to arrange a thing like this, the person hiring would go through someone who knew someone, the person killing would not know who was hiring.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,405 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    There is a guy dropping off a script / gift ... will you bring it back to France with you. Sorry for the late hour but he got lost.

    Not saying that is what happened but it shows how little of the possibiiities you have considered in your tunnel vision.

    Desperate people dont act with 100 percentage certainty. If they werent desperate they wouldnt get involved in situations like that.

    People are convicted for hiring hitmen to dispose of spouses... business partners etc

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_killing

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    There would be many go betweens to arrange a thing like this, the person hiring would go through someone who knew someone, the person killing would not know who was hiring.

    Apart from the fact that they would figure out the intended victim was overwhelmingly likely to be married or directly related to the person who ultimately hired them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    'Sure ask him to leave it at the back door, this is the middle of nowhere'.

    But go back to basics, why would they organise it like this in the first place and make it so convoluted? It's not Fort Knox, the windows were old wooden things that look like they were made in the 50s. It would be so much easier to say 'wait until the lights go out, give it an hour or two and then locate the key I left/pick the lock, get it done and get out'. Rather than 'I'll ring her and tell her I ordered a personalised quill pen, but the delivery guy was driving around Cork lost for five hours and won't get there till 1am. She'll see the car coming and go out to meet you, then once she sees you and your vehicle, you grab her'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,405 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I am explaining how it could have happened.

    Or maybe it didnt happen that way. Maybe he did wait for the lights to go out but Sophie happened to glance out a window and spot someone by moonlight. And challenged him thinking he was there for reason X.

    Challenging the points on the basis it an imperfect plan misses the point because it assumes crimes are only put into motion with perfect plans, that the plans unfold as intended or people only respond to events exactly as you imagine they would.

    Of course that makes it unlikely but unlikely events happen.

    Did Daniel hire a hitman? I dont know.

    But have people hired inexperienced hitmen, who have ended up carrying out the murder in a messy way (or indeed failed)... yes. We know of the ones who got caught but that suggests others were not.

    Whoever did it left no forensics, whether by skill, luck or Garda incompetence.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,332 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    You're positing a fairly elaborate plan for a hit that looks like the act of a random lunatic and goes to some lengths to achieve that effect. If it's DTDP who orchestrates the plan, how does he end up hiring some neanderthal to implement it?

    On the other hand if it's the hitman himself who has the smarts to come up with this plan, how are some of his actions so hamfisted and pitfall-prone that only a near-miraculous sequence of lucky breaks has enabled him (and his 'employer') to get away with it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Glen Immal


    Perchance, the "hit" was organised by an enemy of Daniel?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭Deeec


    DTDP was very well connected and had the money to pay for it. It's not impossible that he did arrange it or got someone else to arrange it. You are assuming all hitmen are clever and meticulous when they are much more likely to be brainless thugs. Catherine Nevin and Patrick Gillane are 2 people here in Ireland who hired people to kill their spouses. It's does happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Gas to see how there is certain posters on this thread unable to see anything outside of the possibility that another person may have committed this murder, trying to discredit any other ideas like some sort of zealot. Makes you think, what would be the motive for them, wouldnt be surprised if they were in a role similar to the ones who committed scandal after scandal in investigating this case or possibly even being paid themselves for this.

    Either this is one hell of a pathetic individual because no matter how much they post and try to put forth their false theories while being deliberately antagonistic towards other posters based on completely false statements & reports, they come back again and again.

    Truth of the matter is, there is a wide range of possibilities as to what could have happened to Sophie that night. Nobody knows or is likely to know ever. To be steadfast in your belief that one person did it or another is idiotic in the extreme.



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Because the French trial was based on dodgy Gardai statements and information, don't pretend you wouldn't have done the exact same thing as Ian Bailey if you were in that situation. It would take an incredibly stupid and naive person to attend that trial. People can act hard and say they would go, but when faced with guaranteed freedom or the high risk of 25 years in prison I'm pretty sure what everyone would take.

    People can say "he should go and clear his name" but that's absolutely nonsense with little chance of a fair trial.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    He didn't have to be there in person, he was entitled to legal representation which he could have instructed from home. That is exactly what I would do if I felt I could be extradited if found guilty. It would cost nothing and, if the case was actually so dodgy, would increase your chance of avoiding a European arrest warrant by at least 50-80%.

    The French called witnesses to testify, they only relied on statements when the person did not show up. GSOC spoke to dozens of witnesses, showed them the statements they made to gardai at the time and asked was anything amiss or incorrect about those statements, or did they wish to retract their statement. The only ones who did so were MF, IB and JT. All the other witnesses stood over what they said back then.

    They carried out their own forensics and engaged their own specialists to examine evidence and statements.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭oceanman


    but yet they didnt want our garda investigating anything about the case in france......do you not find that strange to say the least?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    I don't understand why people keep saying this, they were able to eliminate French suspects through the investigation carried out by French police. They eliminated Bruno Carbonnet this way.

    That's normal practice, police from one country do not normally have the power to caution people/instruct them on their rights in another country so if their statement is running into incriminating territory it would be inadmissible anyway.

    The same thing happened with the Madeliene McCann case, the Portuguese advised the UK police what questions they wanted answered from the people they regarded as suspects and witnesses but Portuguese police were not allowed anywhere near the UK citizens themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    They still took Marie Farrell's original statement as truth, that it was IB she saw on the bridge. Despite her retracting it publicly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    What's funny is you've quoted that her husband saying that he had verified that she would go outside if there was a noise, yet you think it's so farfetched that if someone turned up and made noise she wouldn't come out and it's a terrible idea. Hahahahaha.


    "Equally, and in the same vein, I’m saying, that because of her character, my wife would not hide from any noise outside, but would rather go out to investigate. I had been able to verify that several times."



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    It's all well and good saying they called witnesses to testify, but you perhaps purposefully leave out that they also gave witnesses about a weeks notice before the trial was due to start, leaving little time for people to arrange flights or time off work etc. They sent summons to past addresses and to people who have died. They put basically no serious or respectful effort into the trial. If you think this trial was anything but a show trial to appease Sophie's family then you are deluded.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    What's far-fetched is that he would rely on that assumption to base a complex and ridiculous assassination attempt on. Make sure she can see you and identify you while she is still inside the house? Make a noise that would alarm her enough to go outside, but not enough that it would cause her to ring the gardai. Wacky stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    They saw years of documented reports of witness intimidation and legal threats. They rightly concluded that statements made freely and anonymously before the facts were fully established are far more reliable that ones made years after when all the indications were that there seemed to have been interference.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,624 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    I'm getting to grips with the site changes, haven't worked out quoting yet.

    Just two points, Ian Bailey was living in Kilmacthomas until Summer 1991, so it was a bit later when he met and started going out with Jules rather than the 1989 detailed a few pages back.

    From the DTDP statement,

    "and between 11.30pm and midnight, French time, I had a call from Sophie."

    Does that mean Ireland time was 1 hour earlier? So between 10:30 and 11. In which case she was off to bed quite early. So maybe she rose early too.

    Also, it pissed off Sophie when the gate was left open, if there was drinks in Alfies after the pub around 1am etc, surely someone left the gate open. If she got up for breakfast and had saw the gate open out the window, maybe she grabbed her boots and jacket and stormed down to close it and bumped into someone leaving the party? If she made her feelings known, maybe someone saw red.


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/stinking-lie-had-chilling-effect-on-baileys-life-30729191.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    She has literally come out and said she made them all up. You say statements made years later indicated there seemed to have been interference, but you consistently make excuses for all the statements made years later against Bailey. Surely the same standard applies to IB, statements made years later and with indications of garda interference are far less reliable?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,405 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    They rightly concluded? Eh no. Thats not what a fair trial looks like.

    They just picked the evidence to support their show trial, Bailey sending a legal team to the trial would look as though he accepted its jurisdiction. It has none. They dont care about that fundamental aspect of due process only an idiot could think the trial itself would be fair and participate in it voluntarily.

    MF did not identify Ian Bailey or even describe such a man in her initial anonymous call. And we dont know how she came to identify Bailey... the Guards cant answer it and the pages covering it in the evidence book were deliberately destroyed.

    If there are documented reports of witness intimidation where are the charges brought based on this intimidation?

    Or do you mean Marie Farrells reports of Garda intimidation?

    Or Martin Graham?

    Or the atmosphere the Guards stoked up in West Cork that Bailey was a threat to residents and would strike again so come forward with anything that would incriminate him?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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