4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

So, not comfortable with kids and genitals. That's that sorted then.

And if education is an agenda, so be it.

I stayed well out of the whole having to go to LA for an example of a flasher which you associated with people who are transgender for no good reason given that people who are transgender are as discreet about their privacy as anyone else, and a flasher or exhibitionist is just that, nothing to do with men in general, and nothing to do with anyone on the basis of their sex or gender identity. It’s a behaviour, nothing to do with biology.

Your post is a desperate reach. There’s really no other way to categorise it other than the kind of histrionics I referred to earlier. You couldn’t possibly be that concerned about children asking about a door that you would deny anyone who needed it the use of public facilities. When it comes to schools, which is what the topic of discussion is actually about here - schools are not bottomless pits of money that they have the capacity or the resources to just build more bathrooms or changing rooms or whatever else.

There are practical considerations involved in every situation in every school, and schools have been doing their best to accommodate students for years, and will likely continue to do so regardless of whatever policies that aren’t backed by funding - it’s easy churn out policies that’ll keep lobby groups happy, far more difficult in practice to implement practical ideas in the school.

Teachers don’t generally want children’s education to suffer, so they manage as best they can in the interests of all the children, not just the one or two on the basis of any particular characteristic or trait. I’d always cut them slack because it’s a stressful and tough job enough already. A four year old who’s confused about which door to use? Teachers deal with silly small things like that every day, it’s on the lowest end of what they deal with, as opposed to the terrible imposition on anyone you’re trying to make it out to be. To put it in some sort of context for you - from the Scottish guidelines itself -

In 2019, there were 697,989 pupils in Scotland's public schools. It is known that around 200 young people per year receive support from the Young Person's Gender Service with their transition.

Hell I’ve often gone into the wrong bathroom and y’know what’s happened? Nothing, only me being mortified and trying not to let on. I’ve never met a woman or a child in there who’s given a damn yet. That story from LA? He was a flasher, different context entirely. All you’re doing is attempting to induce fear and anxiety in people.

And just when I thought it couldn’t get any more silly, you come out with this absolute clanger -

Reading it I was reminded of that hoax paper that was just cobbled together pure garbage written with the specific intent of showing an example of the kind of garbage that passes as legitimate in the social sciences, specifically this passage -

As much as the Scottish guidelines are completely useless and gone completely overboard, there’s evidence of going overboard by way of retaliation to the guidelines too, which is also just as completely unnecessary and unreasonable IMO and shows just as little actual interest in children’s education or welfare.

Children have enough to be dealing with, without also having to be anxious about whether their bodies fit someone else’s ideal. That sort of scrutiny just leads to bullying in schools, never mind when they’re adults and they still think their behaviour should be acceptable.

Your responses are predictable at this stage tbh.

Erm well the fist half of your post there could be described as incoherent. Frankly I don't know what the you're on about.

I'd be much more comfortable if Stonewall UK would stick to gay issues, and I would be much more comfortable if it were trans people themselves advocating policy and not the weird situation of gay people advocating for trans rights rights when they are not trans themselves. I'll never get what that's all about and frankly I find that all a bit weird.

You make a point of anti-trans posters disagreeing but you make no mention whatsoever of the fact that trans people disagree was well, e.g Debbie Hayton and others. So here you are as gay person fighting the trans cause when you have no personal insight on the issue. How odd is that. It seems to me your participation in all this is an ideological one.

You say that the gay lobby has been remarkably successful, yes it has, but only in the West. Why don't you advocate for gay rights in non-western countries instead of focusing on the trans issue. And why do I think you feel they are kinda the same thing when they aren't. Why do I get the feeling your're happy more and more (young) gay men are identifying as trans?

If you find anything incoherent there I'll be happy to clarify.

==============================================================

Now to date I knew nothing about Graham Linehan who has been mentioned in other threads, so I thought finally I'd get to know him via this that come up in my feed today, An in-depth interview with the brilliant Andrew Doyle. Worth a watch, and I have to say he doesn't come across anything like as badly as he's been made out to be. Lots of coherent sophisticated points :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pXx7YKcTyI

The first part was a summary of your posts which is why it was incoherent. Because your position is.

Stonewall Uk nor any lobby group in existence care if they are making you comfortable or not.

I'd be more comfortable if Stonewall UK campaigned on both gay and trans issues. Which they do. Who cares if I am comfortable or not?

Did straight people campaigning for gay marriage make you uncomfortable?

Do People with homes campaigning for the homeless make.you uncomfortable?

You clearly see campaigning for the rights of anyone other than yourself as "odd". Thankfully that is not a generally accepted position. But it does explain a lot about your posts.

You are also competely incorrect in saying I make no mention of trans people such as Debbie Hayton disagreeing. In actual fact I have explicitly said not all trans people agree on this very thread.

I do advocate for gay rights in countries outside the West so no idea where that nonsense point came from. Newsflash: advocating trans rights has no conflict with gay rights outside the West.

As for incoherency which you say you'll clarify (so I assume you won't ignore this question) can you explain why you are "uncomfortable" with trans people and TRAs not being in complete agreement but you seem happy enough that anti-trans people such as yourself tend to disagree a lot.

Evidently. Doesn't look like there are interested in making anyone conformable then only getting their way. Not really an attitude that appeals to me.

They seem interested in making me comfortable. They seem interested in making people who agree with me comfortable.

Of course your frankly crazy interpretation of lobby groups which seems to be "do they serve my views or needs" is not why lobby groups exist.

Lesson 1: a lobby group not serving YOU as an individual does not equate to them not serving anyone but themselves. YOU are not the centre of the world. YOUR perspective is one of many.

You have a remarkably egocentric vision of this topic. Maybe it's your general worldview.

No, you are being obviously disingenuous here. I don't find it in the slightest bit odd that anyone would fight for any multiple causes they wish, but I do find it odd that the gay and trans issues are fought for by the same types of people and it's clearly all political and some other odd reason. You might be aware I've brought up the fact that homosexuality and transgender-ism are two completely distinct separate issues with no relation to each other in any way whatsoever. I am not 'anti-trans' as you put it but I absolutely am anti the same-ing of these two things. The more I think if it, the LGBT+ acronym is gay+heterosexual and I think that's not right. That is where my interest and participation in these threads comes from; if I were heterosexual I prolly wouldn't be on these threads at all.

Again it's just your viewpoint that egocentricity seems to make you think everyone should agree.

You choose to divide the world up in one way. I choose another. You see gay issues as separate to trans. But you seem to think they are self evidently different. I see many commonalities.

I don't even need to list all the commonalities (I will if you wish me too). The fact is the gay and trans communities have been associated for decades. I'm not making a political statement here. It's just a basic fact. Gay bars are explicitly trans friendly in a way non-fat bars aren't. Pride is trans friendly. All the gay dating apps are explicitly trans friendly.

The community exists naturally. And you are welcome to have an issue with it. Just as I could (which I don't) claim that since gay and lesbian are different in my worldview there shouldn't be an LGB community. There should actually be 3 separate communities for L, for G, and for B.

Lesson 2: you do not get to decide on how anyone views the LGBT community except for yourself. Equally, I don't get to decide it either. I could exclude anyngroup I want and claim a basis for it. Most people would ignore me.

When Stonewall UK say that homosexuality is about same gender attraction then there is clearly an ideological problem at the heart of Stonewall UK. How can you infer this has noting to do me personally. I'm gay and attracted to men's bodies. I know that comes across as a bit graphic but it's the reality of what being homosexual means. It has noting whatsoever to do with being attracted to a personal feeling of one's gender. So the Newsflash is Stonewall UK are not what they once were and I'm personally going to lobby against them in whatever way I can, and that still doesn't make me anti-trans.

It's very hard to reply to.you as you've muddled your argument so much. Read (carefully) my post that you replied to. We were not discussing Stonewall UK. You asked why I was not campaigning for gay rights outside the west. In my reply I said there is no conflict in campaigning for trans rights and gay rights outside the west. I never mentioned Stonewall UK. That was a completely separate point. I imagine the reason Stonewall UK focus on UK issues is in the name...UK.

If you don't feel represented by Stonewall UK that's fine. Although assuming you live in Ireland it's a little bizarre that your representation issue is that they campaign for trans rights and not that you're in an entirely different country.

But that's not the argument either of us made. You asked why I (not Stonewall UK) don't advocate for gay rights outside the west and I corrected you that I do and further pointed out that there is no conflict in me advocating for gay rights outside the west and trans rights in general.

You seem.to have made the argument all about yourself again and how you feel Stonewall UK don't represent you.

Lesson 3: I am not Stonewall UK. I can advocate for any cause I want without contradiction. I do not advocate for you as an individual. You are not important.

Well that's obvious, if Stonewall UK are the ones who seamus called the 'experts' are the one's advising state policy on transgender issues including gender fluidity and non-binary, who now have a screwed up opinion on what homosexuality is, it's hardly surprising I'd be 'uncomfortable' with their input. Frankly Stonewall strikes me as a bunch of odd balls who really should be shunned rather than thinking of them as experts.

Not what I.asked at all but it's.unsurprising you dodged the question.

I did not ask what issues you have with Stonewall UK.

I asked why you expect all people advocating for trans rights and gay rights to have a message they all agree on but you are perfectly fine the group of people advocating against trans rights to not have a message they all agree on.

Again it's this egocentric view of the world. People You agree with. don't have to.meet the standards you expect of people who you disagree with.

That's the incoherency of your posts.

Lesson 4: what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Sensationalism at its finest ,

People who self identify as the opposite of what they were born are a fine minority ,does this need to be brought into early years settings , absolutely not no , we're talking about 2.5 year-olds to 4 year olds and social transitioning them , they are only in preschool barely 2+ hours and yet this is getting pushed on to early years educators ,in a room with 18+ kids who will also be showing development concerns (ASD,Speech and hearing disorders, behaviour problems , learning disabilities ) all start coming to the fore and staff start noticing the issues , where does trans and pronouns come in to preschool and where do you think it should be taught in preschool .

Considering out of 1 million school children it only effects and tiny handful so why the need to the over prevelance to promote trans from pre /primary and secondary education

@LLMMLL

FYI, I lived on London's gay scene a for decade and a half and had a very active social life, a bit of a west end boy, and I know from my experience that there is absolutely no significant trans presence on the gay scene there. Why would there be when homosexual bars are driven by homosexual hook ups and basic socializing in the hope one might meet a partner and or just for making friends.. Why would heterosexual trans people live on this scene. They never did, it's doesn't make any sense. What you are doing is creating a completely false picture of a lgbt world that doesn't exist. One that you are presenting to the general public who don't know any better. Your LGBT society description is completely phoney. Not only that but even LGB don't mix together, you have men bars/clubs and much fewer L bars. So your happy clappy description of an lgbt+ society is completely false, actually a lie.

I attended London's Gay Pride event (as it used to be called) many times, and it was all about gay. Mostly man gay as well and a smaller Lesbian contingent. As for Trans? Forget it, you'd hardly see it, if at all, I never did. Some showy-offy Drag queens doing their usual attention seeking thing but that't still gay men, not trans.

There is no trans social scene, there are no trans societies, trans bars, or whatever way you want to describes such scenes, because they don't exist. You are creating a look of a LGBT+ society that doesn't exist, and never has. All done because you are on a ladder you shouldn't be on.

Why would gay dating apps be heterosexual friendly? Why would gay bars be heterosexual friendly? Why would trans people who are 90% heterosexual socialize on a homosexual social scene? Just because we are sharing some pink thing? What you are spinning here is ludicrous and doesn't match my 'lived experience' (to talk like a lefty), at all.

This is just bonkers. Stonewall as in the Stonewall bar riots is supposed to be a homosexual advocacy charity, and it doesn't bother you some gay people feel sidelined by the very group that claims to represent them. OMG. And then you wonder why there are now splinter groups.

Oh I know I'm not important, like Stonewall doesn't think this gay person is important. Gay is passé, trans is where it's at. Both at the same time is pretty cool though.

I suppose I should get back on topic so I have a question for you:

If you were a teacher in Scotland, going by the guidelines, would you teach your students that one can't assume one's pronoun, that gender is fluid or none at all, or one of many genders that have noting to do with ones' physical body. Would you put all the new pronouns on a spelling test for example? Practical questions I'm sure the teachers on the front line would be asking.

Doing some handy research....The number of Scots waiting a year or more for planned hospital treatment has almost doubled in just three months as the second wave of Covid-19 hit – with the latest figures showing 28,203 patients having spent 52 weeks or more on an NHS list. New waiting time figures showed “increasing” numbers experiencing longer waits for inpatient and day-case treatment in NHS Scotland. At the end of December 2020 there were 15,128 patients who had been waiting a year or more for such treatment.

yet... There are doctors, nurses, carers, anesthesiologists, and so on, readily available to assist changing the gender of children.... fûck. World is rubber ducked.