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2020 officially saw a record number of $1 billion weather and climate disasters.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Ok, maybe "not extraordinary" was a bad choice of words and unprecedented would have been better. But surely referencing such an extraordinary event would warrant reference to the few times it occurred in past too, especially if such events were even more extraordinary. But that's the point, never do we see this transparency when it comes to severe weather events. Worse events in the past rarely get mentioned, as to do so would dilute the hyperbole and restrict the WWA's freedom to paint a false picture. But that seems acceptable...



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I wonder do People realise that there are ancient cities deep under the Ocean, I wonder what cause that, alien farts ? natural climate change or could it possibly have been caused by the great flood mentioned in the Bible ? you know the one NOAA went to the trouble to build the Ark for ? hmmmmmm

    The NOAA satellite launched in 1979 do not support anthropogenic warming.

    Land based temperature records are being manipulated and cherry picked, the WMO removed the highest temperature record in Africa some decades ago, just like that, had a meeting and poof, the history was wiped, now that record is held by death valley USA.... nonsense. Our own Met Eireann removed the Kilkenny station around a decade ago.

    For decades the UN has been prophesising doom and gloom non of which even came true, in the 90's a British newspaper carried a story from so called scientists saying by the year 2000 Children won't know what snow is, again the same UN scammers, the IPCC. Self appointed scammers, the blind leading the blind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    There wasn't much of a ball, so all that was left was the man.

    The paper he cited didn't say what he claims it says. Clausius-Clapeyron refers to the Maximum increase in moisture content as a result of each degree of warming. It doesn't say moisture content always goes up by 7%., Also, the WWA study did not refer to Clausius-Clapeyron in their non-peer reviewed study into the German flood, not even once. It was not a factor in their models

    All Steele does is, like most other self important 'skeptics' who think they know everything, is take one element of a study or weather event or a talking point, completely misinterpret it either wilfully or out of ignorance, and then spew their nonsense directly onto the internet where armies of people like you, who only listen to what you want to hear, will repeat it without any fact checking or analysis and then move on to the next nonsense unscientific rant because its easier to do that than to educate yourself or re assess your earlier opinion



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Also, the WWA study did not refer to Clausius-Clapeyron in their non-peer reviewed study into the German flood, not even once.

    Eh, I think you'll find that they did. See page 39.

    Nevertheless, the change in absolute humidity of the atmosphere is robustly represented in all modelling streams. Although actual increases in humidity do not always follow the local temperature changes using the Clausius-Clapeyron relationship of 6-7 % per degree, observations show (Byrne and O’Gorman, 2018; https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/monitoring/humidity.html) and models project robust increases in humidity of the atmosphere. This provides a firm basis of observed and projected increases in precipitation extremes (Fischer et al., 2016). Typically expected changes in near surface humidity are 4-6 % per degree global warming (O'Gorman and Muller, 2010; Lenderink and Attema, 2015; Lenderink et al., 2021), depending on precipitation-soil moisture drying feedback in summer over the continent. Nonetheless, since heavy precipitation events occur during wet conditions, an increase of about 7 % per degree of global warming, consistent with the Clausius-Clapeyron relationship is overall projected on land (IPCC 2021, Chapter 11: Seneviratne et al., in press). This provides a physically-based baseline estimate of changes to precipitation extremes. Most of the presented trends here are consistent with this estimate. Since 1950 observed annual maximum daily precipitation (RX1day) has intensified at a rate remarkably consistent with the Clausius-Clapeyron relationship of ca. 7% per degree warming aggregated across global land regions (Westra et al., 2013; Sun et al., 2021) as well as across all of Europe (Fischer et al., 2016) and central Europe (including Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Switzerland) (Zeder and Fischer, 2020).



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    https://youtu.be/TbW_1MtC2So for those who like things in youtube format



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Based on data derived from proxies (palaeoclimatology) temperatures have been remarkably range bound for the last 7,000 years as has the rate of sea level rise. There are no written records from the period of the global flood but is was a catastrophic event around about 12,000 to 14,000 years ago, that does however seem to be when agriculture seems to have started based on the archaeological records found. If you are interested someday there is a fascinating discussion between Joe Rogan, Graham Hancock & Randall Carlson about the cataclysmic events around that period and the evidence for them. (It's 3 hours)

    There is satellite data and other records on the Arctic ice prior to 1979 courtesy of Mr. Tony Heller and older IPCC documents. The maximum and minimum looks range bound to me. Nothing to lose sleep over despite what you hear about the melting in Green land in Summer, the overall surface mass balance trend in recent years tell a different story that the tabloid stories you get every Summer. If the ice did not melt in Summer and freeze in Winter then we would have a real problem on our hands.

    Most modern temperature records really only start being gathered consistently with the development of air travel. There are only 9 rural stations outside the United States that have consistently recorded data since the 19th century that can be considered free of the urban heat island (UHI) effect and one of those is Valentia observatory. For computer modelling purposes there are a number of global temperature datasets used and those datasets are homogenised for various reasons which is the subject of it's own debate - Here is what NASAs Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) does to Valentia Observatory and here is what Ronan Connelly's analysis shows.


    I don't see Met Eireann being in on any conspiracy the Kilkenny record from the19th century still stands, they do have to play the climate public relations game which is understandable, AFAIK their biggest customer is Dublin Airport (much to the chagrin of Michael O'Leary) that does mean without air travel they may need another funding source in future.


    The United Nations has indeed been forecasting doom for past 50 years, and always 10 to 20 years away. They are a broken record in that regard even pulling the same stunt twice 1st using Severn Cullis-Suzuki then Greta Thunberg. On the back on the 1987 Montreal protocol to change refrigerants they made a political miscalculation in thinking that they could change and control the worlds energy systems and so they are stuck with the 26th conference of parties until someone figures out how to dig themselves from the hole they made for themselves.


    The newspaper in question as the UK Independent back in March 2000 and the climate expert claimed:

    However, the warming is so far manifesting itself more in winters which are less cold than in much hotter summers. According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia,within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event”.

    “Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” he said.


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    You should perhaps fact check it first 30 seconds in - Oil companies were the first to discover climate change in the 1980s . . . really, really??

    Mr. Koch tells be that #Exxonknew.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    You missed one. Also quoted in that article:

    David Parker, at the Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research in Berkshire, says ultimately, British children could have only virtual experience of snow. Via the internet, they might wonder at polar scenes - or eventually "feel" virtual cold.

    So two different scientists from two of the leading climate research bodies with false predictions there. But the best bit, though, is this

    Warmer winters have significant environmental and economic implications, and a wide range of research indicates that pests and plant diseases, usually killed back by sharp frosts, are likely to flourish. But very little research has been done on the cultural implications of climate change - into the possibility, for example, that our notion of Christmas might have to shift.

    Really devastating consequences alright.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Nights in winter are becoming warmer as even under ideal anticyclonic conditions cloud seems to develop easier. Though daytime temps seem to be stable.

    Only going by the trends in this country though.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    I'm curious how far back does the dataset go? If it goes back far enough is there any correlation with the AMO



    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    As far back as any of these met eireann records go. Historical Data - Met Éireann - The Irish Meteorological Service (some as far back as 1950 and beyond.

    TBH, I have become increasingly sceptical about the AMO, not so much in how it affects the climate here in Europe, but more in how it 'becomes' in itself. as it seems that in the past as least, the AMO tends to follow temperature trends in the Arctic, rather than the other way around.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,462 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    I checked my data sets for NYC and the two occasions with more rainfall were also tropical remnant events in 1882 and 1903.

    The general trends of precipitation at NYC were falling in the 1950s and 1960s, slowly increasing in the 1970s, and peaked in the mid-1980s. The trends since then have been fairly static in general, above the very long-term averages with the occasional dry year but most of the recent years have been rather wet. This past year is certainly one of the wetter years, to date there have been six daily records broken, albeit three of them were very weak records (low hanging fruit) and three recently were more impressive. There have been a handful of heavier rainfalls in the past however. It's not some new phenomenon never seen before.

    Ida resembled a storm in 1888 following roughly the same path and one of the daily records set just edged past the 1888 record (by 4.45" to 4.19"). So the Henri rains (from a different setup entirely) more or less matched the 1888 version of Ida. Newspaper accounts from 1888 speak of flooding and severe storms with that event also, in fairly similar places. One thing that has changed of course is that everything nowadays is paved over so storm drainage in urban areas quickly fills up the streets especially underpasses, back in the 19th century it would fall on large agricultural landscapes that probably absorbed some of the water without having it run off into cities.

    That six daily record count (so far) puts 2021 already in a tie with several years in third place behind only 1983 (9) and 1913 (8) (the period of record is 1869 to present). The amount of rain that has fallen so far would only need average rainfall now to end of December to place the year as high as third, it would have some trouble reaching the 80" that fell in 1983, needing another 31" with a long dry spell in view now. The year has already passed all but thirty-five of 152 full years (49.2" has fallen so far).



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    There is plenty of evidence to show that the AMO is a strong driver of Arctic SST and weather patterns over large parts of the globe, particularly Eurasia and North America.

    Winter Eurasian cooling linked with the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation - IOPscience

    Rapid winter warming over the Arctic and large winter cooling over Eurasia are the most important manifestations of the recent climate change over northern latitudes (Cohen et al 2014). While some studies have attributed the Arctic warming to anthropogenic forcing (Gillett et al 2008), Arctic surface air temperature (SAT) and sea-ice cover (SIC) were found to exhibit clear multidecadal variations associated with the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (AMO) (Levitus et al 2009, Wyatt et al 2012, Mahajan et al 2011, Miles et al 2014), which reflects 60–80 year quasi-periodic oscillations in the sea surface temperature (SST) over the North Atlantic basin (Mann et al 1995, Knight et al 2005).

    Many studies have indicated that the winter Eurasian temperature shows a clear multi-decadal variability linked to the AMO (Knight et al 2005, Wyatt et al 2012, Hao et al 2016), 




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    I'm well aware of what the affects of the AMO are. I just question what triggers which. I recall doing up and posting a graph on here a couple of years back that showed that the AMO trends tend to follow those of the Arctic rather than vice versa. I don't discount the other option either but it planted in me a seed of doubt. Could be just a case of egg and chicken at the end of the day. We'll never know for sure.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    He didn't really mean that they were the first to discover climate change. The first reports that concluded that climate change relating to increased GHGs was already happening were released around 1977, which is when the Exxon scientists were first employed to study this, so they were amongst the very first scientists to find that climate change was already underway due to the emissions from fossil fuel combustion.

    The physics relating to the greenhouse effect have been known about since Eunice Foote first measured it in 1856 (soon confirmed by John Tyndall)

    Apart from this poetic license, does the fact that the likes of Exxon deliberately lied to us and falsified and misled the public, and bribed government officials, and funded climate denial in the press and social media etc etc etc, are any of these nuggets of information sufficient for you to change your opinion about which side of this 'debate' is worthy of your attention

    I mean, the 'ClimateGate' CRU 'scandal' dominated the 'skeptic' blogsphere for months and months, but when the one of the biggest oil companies in the world are caught deliberately lying for decades. Those same blogs and publications barely mention it at all. I wonder why?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    "It is unequivocal that human influence has warmed the atmosphere, ocean and land. Widespread and rapid changes in the atmosphere, ocean, cryosphere and biosphere have occurred."

    "Global mean sea level increased by 0.20 [0.15 to 0.25] m between 1901 and 2018. The average rate of sea level rise was 1.3 [0.6 to 2.1] mm yr–1 between 1901 and 1971, increasing to 1.9 [0.8 to 2.9] mm yr–1 between 1971 and 2006, and further increasing to 3.7 [3.2 to 4.2] mm yr–1 between 2006 and 2018 (high confidence). Human influence was very likely the main driver of these increases since at least 1971. "

    https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/downloads/report/IPCC_AR6_WGI_SPM.pdf

    The IPCC AR6 WG1 report represents a review of All of the best and most recent scientific studies.

    If you do not agree with their findings, then you need to ask yourself why do you feel you know more about the climate than the vast majority of all the worlds most experienced scientists in their relevant fields



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    It's fair to say there are shenanigans going on with both sides of the debate. There are vested interests in toning down Climate Change to the point where it doesn't exist, there are other vested interests in ramping it up to the point where we're all dead in 10 years. Any reasonable person following it with more than a passing interest can spot that if they are impartial. The truth, in my opinion, is that humans are causing some effects to the climate but not a drastic amount. We should be more concerned with habitat conservation for wildlife, greater focus on keeping our groundwater systems clean and working on technologies to either compete with or overtake fossil fuels as our primary energy source. Taxing people into poverty via punitive carbon levies will not solve this - find another way, do better.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    This is the level of intelligence we're dealing with when it comes to reporting weather and climate. The problem is, most of the population will believe it and then blame weather forecasters when it doesn't come to pass. But that doesn't matter, the job will already have been done. One more weather event will be ingrained in the public psyche, regardless of whether it was actually real or not.


    The reporter is a recent recruit from the Daily Mail...






  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The shenanigans are far from evenly distributed. One side is blatantly lying about the science and bribing politicians and buying up media coverage. The other 'side' are using emotive language that may not necessarily be fully scientificly accurate all of the time.

    So lets ignore all of the people saying things that are not supported by the science on both 'sides'.

    The IPCC are saying that we have to act immediately if we are to have any chance of limiting warming to 1.5c which is the threshold where we believe other feedbacks may begin to ramp up

    2c is our more realistic target, and the scientific consensus is that we could probably deal with this as long as it is accompanied with negative carbon to bring us under 2c of warming as soon as possible

    the 3c+ of warming that we are headed for based on our current emissions is almost universally acknowledged by experts in their fields as being very dangerous levels of climate change


    On this image, the baseline is 1990, so we've already warmed by about .8 of a degree since 1990

    In the 7 years between when this originally appeared in IPCC AR3 and the updated paper in 2016, the biggest shift in reasons for concern was on the are of 'risk of large scale discontinuities'. The IPCC understated this risk in their earlier publications and are only now beginning to take those risks seriously. Most climate scientists are very personally concerned about these risks and their increasing likelyhood as we add more warming by not acting to reduce our CO2 emissions.

    "RISKS OF LARGE-SCALE DISCONTINUITIES.

    This RFC represents the likelihood that certain phenomena (sometimes called singularities or tipping points) would occur, any of which may be accompanied by very large impacts. These phenomena include the deglaciation (partial or complete) of the West Antarctic or Greenland ice sheets and major changes in some components of the Earth's climate system, such as a substantial reduction or collapse of the North Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (8)."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2648893/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The New York Post is the Daily express of the US. Its not a credible source for anything, quoting them to demostrate hysteria by the 'mainstream media' is like quoting the weekly world news to prove that there was a mass media hysteria about 'bat boy'



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    I never mentioned mainstream media, that's a word that you put in my mouth. However, rag or not, the New York Post has 2.2 million followers on Twitter alone. Just the same as how many Irish seem to get their "facts" from the likes of Dublinlive and Independent.ie, nonsense like the NYP appeals to the masses and undoubtedly influences people's opinions. The fact is that we don't see this type of tripe getting called out by scientific community as the information is wrong in the right way for them, however they'll be first to comment on anything they class as s*eptical of the consensus.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    The other 'side' are using emotive language that may not necessarily be fully scientificly accurate all of the time.

    Well at least you're now owning up to it. 😉



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Those 2.2 million followers are mostly Trump supporting climate skeptics

    I keep saying we should take the best available scientific evidence, but you are plumbing the depths of tabloid journalism to justify… something



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Of course, on any argument there will be emotional proponents. But those people believe what they are arguing. In contrast we have corporations deliberately crafting misinformation campaigns.

    its an asymmetric war. The vast bulk of money and resources are spent by the richest corporations in the world deliberately to misinform the public



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Playing dumb now when it suits. I very clearly stated what my point was.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Your point was that idiots who believe the NY post will be misled?

    those people already believe Trump won the last election

    but please do challenge these tabloids for inaccurate reporting.I’m sure they’ll listen



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    You are obsessed with Trump. And I don't think it is coincidence that your views on not just Trump, but those who don't conform to capitalist neoliberal ideology, are exactly the same views that corporate and state media and the vast majority of Wall Street billionaires hold. Do you think that by reading the Guardian, and other such partisan 'news' outlets, that that makes you smarter than those that don't?

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I think that people who read news papers like the express, the daily mail, the NY post, the Washington Times etc are not getting reliable information from these sources, they are lied to on a daily basis and as such they are very often completely ignorant of the facts of the world they live in.

    These papers are also, not coincidentally, climate change denial publications

    The guardian has it's editorial line, but it doesn't go out of the way to lie to its readers at every opportunity

    To prove my point, if you google 'The Guardian Hurricane Larry' there are no stories about the current storm because it is not much of a threat to anyone other than some deep sea trawlers

    If you google 'the Express Hurricane Larry'

    you get headlines like

    data:image/png;base64,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 There was an error displaying this embed.

    Daily Express

    Hurricane Larry path tracker: Canada on alert as 'monster hurricane' to make direct hit

    and


    Daily Express

    UK storm alert: Hurricane Larry to trigger Atlantic system to bombard Britain - new maps

    Britain is expected to bask in glorious sunshine and warm temperatures through the first half of next week as heat from Europe propels ...

    6 days ago


    or the NY Post


    New York Post

    Storm set to slam NYC area, could bring more flash flooding

    Although another powerful storm, Hurricane Larry was churning it's way up the coast at about 1,200 miles off shore, Dombeck said Wednesday ...

    19 hours ago


    Some newspapers make you dumber the more you read them. The guardian absolutely is not in the same category as these tabloids.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    "The guardian has it's editorial line, but it doesn't go out of the way to lie to its readers at every opportunity" - Akrasia

    First Thing: insurrection at the Capitol, incited by the president | | The Guardian

    Insurrection Day: when white supremacist terror came to the US Capitol | US Capitol attack | The Guardian

    And a gem from their fellow Neolibs in arms: Capitol insurrection denialism is already here - CNN

    But... upon investigation:

    Exclusive: FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated - sources | Reuters

    The Guardian, like so many other neoliberal media outlets, lie all the time to push their political agenda and shape public opinion because they are willing agents of the corrupt political and vampiric corporate class. And I think anyone who consumes ANY media outlet without any shred of critical thought or analysis are people who are not very bright at all.

    New Moon



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