Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Murder at the Cottage | Sky

Options
1156157159161162350

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    The West Cork podcast said they could find no trace of him telling a friend he done a terrible thing, it was speculation based on gossip or word of mouth.


    I think their exact line was something like "I heard from a friend who heard from someone in prison".



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Does the bottle of wine still exist or was it destroyed?

    Wouldn't be shocked if they gave it to Martin Graham to get Bailey to spill...



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Also, do we know exactly where the bottle of wine was found?



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,405 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Destroyed or 'lost'.

    I read it was found in a ditch but dunno about where exactly.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Some interesting tidbits from an article.

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/the-complex-and-secret-private-life-of-fragile-sophie-26805384.html

    Last October, Eamon Barnes claimed a garda tried to put pressure on his office in 1998 to bring a charge against Bailey. He didn't act on his concerns at the time. In an email, published here for the first time, he wrote: "I considered that any follow- up action by the office was unlikely to achieve anything useful. . . Recent reports in the media regarding the French investigation of Ms Du Plantier have caused me concern concerning it. There is now a real possibility that Bailey may be charged in France and perhaps receive a lengthy prison sentence presumably, inter alia, on evidence and conclusions provided by what I regarded at the time as having been a thoroughly flawed and prejudiced investigation, culminating in a grossly improper attempt to achieve or even force a prosecutorial decision which accorded with that prejudice."

    He concluded: "I felt accordingly that as a matter of ordinary justice I was obliged to bring the matter to appropriate attention."


    Detectives took Ms Hellen into Ms Du Plantier's house to see whether anything was missing or disturbed. She later told French magazine Paris Match that she noticed that a poker was missing, there were two glasses on the draining board and that two chairs were pulled in front of the radiator. This didn't necessarily mean she had company, according to one detective. Ms Du Plantier often let used glasses mount up and she could have used the second chair to put her feet up by the radiator.

    It was interesting that, months after the murder, a bottle of wine was found in bushes near a laneway close to Ms Du Plantier house. It was an expensive bottle of French wine, unopened, that had lain there for some time. According to one detective, it would have cost £60 or £70 at the time. None of the local off-licences stocked it but it was for sale in airport duty-free shops.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Some questions Sophie Tuscan de plantiers family should have or should be asking the gards

    1) Why was Karl Heinz not taken in for questioning? considering he lived in close proximity to the house, knew Sophie & had no alibi for that night. Did they ask for a DNA sample from him, if he wasn't willing to provide it, that would point towards guilt.

    2) Why was the gate & bottle of wine destroyed/lost? Surely with advent of DNA testing coming in, they should surely have been kept?

    3) What made them focus in on Bailey so much and rule out any other suspects, quashing any other lines of enquiry. Is there something they know that the rest of us dont now?

    4) How thoroughly did they check the alibis of other people in the community? Its not a big community, they should have also asked for DNA samples from everyone in the locality. A big job but a necessary one, anyone failing to give it or subsequently leaving the area, should come under their radar then.

    5) This bottle of wine, how rare was it, was it actually sold in the airport, or was it sold in Cork city?Or only in France and not in Ireland at all. Did Sophie like this particular type of wine, if she did, it would point to a killer who actually knew her.

    And the above questions would only be the beginning. This is the problem when detectives like Dwyer are handed the case who get tunnel vision and then try to build a false narrative around a potentially innocent suspect ruling out other possible suspects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,693 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "5) This bottle of wine, how rare was it, was it actually sold in the airport, or was it sold in Cork city?Or only in France and not in Ireland at all. Did Sophie like this particular type of wine, if she did, it would point to a killer who actually knew her"

    She brought something with her from Paris airport;




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Doubt thats the one as why would the killer take it and then fling it into the briars. Possibly leaving behind some DNA. Why go near it at all if its Sophies. I think its possibly someone who brought it along in an attempt to seduce Sophie & then flung it away after the murder. Someone who was either drunk, high or didnt give a **** as its consistent with the way Sophie's body was found at the side of the driveway with no attempt made to cover her up or conceal it.

    I think the wine bottle is significant and at the very least should have been kept. Another piece to add to the mountains of evidence the gards either destroyed or "lost".



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That was from the crime scene photos tho. So all that would have been taken by the garda anyway.

    The bottle of wine was found the following April by John hellen (Josie and finbars son) when he was working the land. By the time he took it to Gards it had 3 sets of fingerprints on it (him and his parents). They should absolutely have sourced the purchase tho, except that might have moved the scent from IB, so they likely didn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,053 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    You and others seem to be convinced that Bailey is quite innocent. Maybe he is but he is also a prime suspect as he has said himself IIRC. That he finds himself in that position is not just chance. Where there's smoke, there is a strong possibility of fire. Did he start it? But he sure has fanned it. I repeat if he is truly innocent he should be happy to go before any court and have the facts examined.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 16,334 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    1) Why was Karl Heinz not taken in for questioning? considering he lived in close proximity to the house, knew Sophie

    Has this been established? According to an article quoted upthread he denied knowing her. Without that you got a guy who lived in her vicinity and committed suicide within months of her death. Enough to make him a serious suspect?



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,405 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Many truly innocent people who stood trial in their own court system ended up in jail, never mind one as a foreigner or in a kangaroo court that claims jurisdiction over a different country.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    If I were Bailey's P.R. adviser i would be strongly advising him to lie low, stop doing interviews and stay off social media. He could well,if inebriated, say,write or post something self-incriminating.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    None of what you say makes any sense. Why on earth would someone go to a foreign country for a crime they didnt commit? Why would you take the chance that you could possibly be wrongfully convicted especially because the evidence they are using is corrupt in itself.

    It doesn't matter if he fanned the flames or enjoyed some of the media attention, it still doesnt make him guilty and the DPP agreed with this. What you and some others seem to be forgetting on this thread is that just because you think he might be involved, doesnt mean that he was and he is entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise. Simple as that. Ye can bang on about it all ye want but he hasnt even been charged with the crime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Ian Bailey has asked numerous times to have the case re-opened and investigated.

    He can't defend himself in an Irish Court - Because the DPP state they have no evidence to try him on.

    Why should he, or any other Citizen of Ireland make their way to France to be tried for a murder they have already been convicted on.... Would you??

    It's truly amazing.. The Irish courts couldn't even put Bailey on trial due to a complete lack of evidence (a basic fundamental requirement to have a trial) Yet the French can try him, condemn him and convict him for 25ys without even speaking to him...

    The assumption of innocence until proven guilty by a Court of law, is an entitlement to every citizen in this Country, not a privilege!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Boutiques aeroports de Paris - I wonder was it checked what she had bought at Paris airport.

    Was the bottle of wine found near the laneway bought in Paris airport by Sophie?

    How the bottle got to where it was found should have been significant, whether through Sophie or someone else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Not saying he should have been a serious suspect, saying that he should have been properly questioned, DNA & fingerprints taken, he could have refused of course and if he did, this would have pointed towards his guilt unlike Bailey who willingly gave his DNA.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,334 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Okay fair enough you're saying Sophie's family should be pressurising the Gardai to explain why they didn't do things right initially.

    But as a line of inquiry in 2021 the German guy looks stone cold to me. I don't see how anything could be achieved by focusing on him as a suspect, whether he actually did it or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Yes, thats what I'm saying but I'm saying thats what have should have been happening all along, males in the vicinity with no alibi leaving alone especially should have been checked up on. How are we to know they checked him properly, I seriously doubt it considering how they've handled other aspects of the investigation. Either rule him in or out, narrow down the search when that's been done properly.

    I dont believe its completely stone cold as a lead, he may have confessed to someone who hasnt said anything yet, his DNA might match the DNA found on Sophies boot, he may have written a confession, who knows. The gards should be and should have been all along following up on all leads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,157 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Very much looks that this case won't be solved now unless we get a signed confession or some new forensic evidence is found using new techniques?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,693 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "That was from the crime scene photos tho".

    That's obvious ,

    the point I was making was in response JimWallace that the wine may have come from Paris airport with her.

    I know the Gardai were fixated on IB but hardly to the extent of ignoring something like the wine bottle.

    Do you know where it was found by the way, other than " in a ditch by a lane near the murder scene"?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭oceanman




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Lol I mean if it was in the bag in the crime scene photos, it hardly ended up in the lane did it?

    I'm sure they went thru all her receipts etc anyway and saw everything she purchased.

    I can't remember exactly where he found it, in the land they own adjacent to Sophies I imagine



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,693 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    The DPP has not said there is no evidence, they said in the absence of new evidence they will not consider charging anyone. In the run up to IB's High Court action against the state the DPP tried to have their file and list of witnesses excluded from the case, it still had the potential to proceed. The DPP report that is often quoted predates several reviews and new case files submitted by the gardai so we have no idea what the current state of the investigation is here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Massive Berevement


    Regarding a hitman and given that she was described as fiesty and fearless and someone who would not shy away, an easy way to get her out of the house would be to pretend to be breaking into her car. Wait until you see her in the kitchen window in the morning and then approach so that she would see you and then when she comes out to confront you, you pretend to be backing away down towards the gate again. Maybe she grabbed the wine bottle as a weapon which is why it ended up down there. She gets killed and the fiesta left down by the gate drives away.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    Add them to the list of reasonable questions the guards never asked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Karl Heinz Wolney was questioned, his statement is in the garda file. He was not known to have any connection with Sophie and if they were to arrest everyone who was alone that night within a few miles radius they would be lambasted and probably sued for wrongful arrest. Sure, with hindsight it might appear slightly suspicious that he moved home and committed suicide, but unless the gardai had a crystal ball they could not have known any of these developments in advance. He had no record of violent/sexual assaults that we know of? So, we have to ask again would it be reasonable for the gardai to demand or request a fingerprint or DNA sample from a man with no criminal history, no motive and no link to the victim?

    The wine bottle and gate had to have been handled by several people, maybe dozens, before and after the crime. The only incriminating evidence was blood on the gate which turned out to be Sophie's. If someone's DNA was on the gate, that is not incriminating unless it was a mixed victim/perp sample or something like that. Nothing like that was found.

    What made them focus on Bailey? People in the community reported the wounds on his hands and arms. Gardai observed the wounds directly while he was in a local shop. He acted suspiciously after the gardai noticed the wounds, walking down a side street then looking back to see if he was being followed. He was known to gardai for violently assaulting a woman. He gave two versions of what he did that weekend and omitted spending the night at a party the night prior, only correcting this after he learned the gardai had spoken to people who were with him. Several people said he told them he knew the victim. His newspaper article on the 26th said there had been no sexual assault, this was only known to the pathologist and senior detectives. The garda at the crime scene nominated him as a suspect because of his suspicious behaviour when he first arrived, he appeared to be acting like a reporter and made little effort to establish any of the facts or await any developments. He claimed to have been asked to make a delivery to Alfie Lyons three days after the murder, crossed the garda cordons and accessed the crime scene. He was able to drive directly to the crime scene after being told only the nationality of the victim. The person who gave him this information said he did not even mention that she was French.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Nice to see the gards have their own representative on this thread who keeps repeating the same mantra ad nauseum that Bailey did it without any hard evidence.

    Wonder how much they're getting paid or more than likely, they're one themselves.

    Trying to derail what is in fact a good thread overall.



This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement