4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

This almost got lost among @[Deleted User] and @AllForIt reminiscing like a pair of auld biddies about the civil rights movement and culture in the 70’s and 80’s and how everything seemed much simpler then… it did if you were wearing rose tinted glasses (which I’m sure were quite fetching, Elton John was rockin’ ‘em for the best part of a decade and all!), but it’s not the least bit strange that their versions of history would ignore the origins of the Stonewall marches and Pride.

They facts are a bit fuzzy depending upon who’s telling the story, but all the essential elements, including the T, were there from the beginning, and what is being witnessed now is just history repeating itself -

@[Deleted User] I think @Annasopra had a fair point about the way your post read as a sort of a “people who are transgender should just be quiet”, it was that very same sort of attitude which led to one of the organisers of the organisers of the march referred to as an “oppressive culture of hetero-sexism”, which in their opinion needed to be overthrown by people who didn’t conform to it, basically anyone who didn’t conform to expectations of gender and sex or sexual identity and sexual orientation. There was no shortage of in-fighting among the various groups either.

The way you put it though klaz as though people who are transgender should ASK for something as simple as entry to the bathroom they’re most comfortable in, same as anyone else is already entitled to without asking, and making the point that being transgender isn’t similar to being homosexual and they aren’t comparable, but smokers ARE comparable as second class citizens? As odd comparisons go like, although it is similar to the way in which homophiles (as they were known at the time), were just expected to quit being homophiles in the same way as smokers are generally just expected to quit smoking (personally I have no desire to quit smoking, I enjoy it far too much, but would never encourage children to take up the filthy habit 😏).

But surely you can’t have been so oblivious that you really think there were no straight men in gay clubs during the 70’s - present? Not even during the era of the New Romantics, New Wave, Electro and Synth pop that was huge in the UK with bands like the Pet Shop Boys, Erasure and the Scottish band Bronski Beat? Frankie really must have went to Hollywood that yourself and AllforIt missed out on a whole generation of music and culture, Culture Club was another one… maybe we liked the music 😏

But the idea that people who are transgender haven’t been taking baby steps, or haven’t always just been treated as an afterthought in the movement and now the idea that they’re gaining equal rights looks like they want everything immediately? Lads they’ve been having to fight for legal recognition since before any of us were born. In 1997 Lydia Foy started their battle for legal recognition, AFTER they had completed sex reassignment surgery as it was known then at the time -

The GRA was only introduced into Irish Law in 2015, nearly 20 years after Lydia Foy began fighting, and 11 years after it had already been. law in the UK following a case that went as far as the ECHR in 2002 in the UK. How “slow” do you imagine IS acceptable, before they can ask to use the bathroom? They wouldn’t want to be waiting in a queue while human rights are being recognised, would they?

For all the harping on that anyone is teaching facts are less important than feelings and all the rest of it about “biological reality” and yada, yada, the reality is that approach has NEVER been taken by any group, in any circumstances, so to suggest that it should now apply to people who are transgender is something of a glaring double standard. Education has always been provided by people who were promoting their own personal beliefs, and in this particular case, which I don’t immediately associate with people who are transgender as though they’re responsible for it, the circumstances aren’t any different, so different standards shouldn’t apply if we’re all equal, right? Unless we’re not… for reasons which I’m yet to be made aware of that don’t amount to just plain old prejudice.

It does y’know, in the section on “Supporting young transgender people at school: steps for good practice”. They refer specifically to Scotland’s Curriculum for Excellence. Part of that curriculum is learning while including LGBT in education -

So either these children are mentally ill (according to some here), but don't require/deserve treatment? Or we want to pretend being trans doesn't exist (and therefore we won't treat the actual mental illness that might be caused by this denial of fact?), Or we assume it's all just a choice and give no support at all (wonder how that would work with all the other lifestyle choices people make that cause them to require medical assistance 🤔).

It's kinda amusing to see how some groups of people try and tie themselves in knots.

Of course, this is all a completely over the top hypothetical situation as the topic is nothing to do with gender related medical intervention for 4 year olds. It's just more baseless fear mongering.

Now we wouldn't want to base anything on "feelings" now, would we 🤣

I think it's the absolute hypocrisy that I find the most amusing in these threads.

You present some hypothesis based on you getting "the feeling" entirely without irony, say what indeed!

What are you talking about? What charities? Calls by who? What has it got to do with the Scottish guidance?

Explain that one to me. Gatling is claiming that there are "calls" for charities to be investigated over false numbers reporting trans suicides.

While we wait for him to link to his source which I'm sure will not be Twitter, please explain to me how a charity supposedly (but probably not in reality) reporting incorrect numbers for trans suicides has anything to do with the Scottish guidance?

klaz you said it yourself that they always went to the toilet they were comfortable with, and that’s no different than anyone else, and that’s why I questioned your suggestion that they should have to ASK to use the bathroom. I was referring to the fact that they use the bathrooms they want to already, and generally nobody bats an eyelid. The only thing that’s actually different nowadays is that people are armed with mobile devices which they can use to film themselves and others in the bathroom (I’ll let you take a wild guess at who’s doing the most filming, and what they’re uploading, for the benefit of an audience who are into that sort of thing). It’s THEIR behaviour should be addressed, NOT the person who just wants to use the facilities to do their business or to change their clothes or try on clothes in dressing rooms, whatever.

Nobody had any right to police other people’s privacy in bathrooms and public spaces before now, and I don’t see people being granted that right any time soon, because invariably it would lead to more women being harassed in changing rooms and so on than it would expose deviant perverts.

It’s true that they are recognised in law as acquiring the rights of their preferred gender, but that’s not the same as suggesting that they have carte blanche in all circumstances. The rights they acquire generally prevent them from being discriminated against unlawfully on the basis of their gender identity or sex. And that’s about it really. It doesn’t mean they have automatic access to women’s sports or spaces, etc. No woman has those automatic rights either simply on the basis of their sex. If a person regards themselves as having been treated unfairly or unlawfully discriminated against, they would still lose their case if the person or people providing the service could demonstrate a legitimate aim and that ten purpose of discrimination was determined to be reasonable and proportionate means of achieving that legitimate aim. It’s because discrimination has had a serious impact upon society already that any existing discrimination has to be justifiable.

You made the point yourself that the “trans umbrella” encompasses a wide range of ideas, which is a fair point. That’s why when you ask do “we” want to start normalising all the trans movement to children, I’m taking a wild guess that you’re referring to yourself, me, other people and parents (regardless of how they came to be parents, legal guardians, etc, unmarried mothers, unmarried fathers, etc), and I can’t answer definitively because I know everyone has their own ideas about what they do or don’t associate with the “trans movement”. I don’t think it’s beyond the bounds of possibility that there ARE people with children who want their children to be exposed to the whole kit and kaboodle, “Theybies” are some craic -

Like, of all the things that I’d be concerned about for my own child, gender identity or stereotypes or whatever else just doesn’t come into it - as far as I’m concerned he’s a boy and I raise him with the intent that he too becomes a man who also isn’t interested in making anyone else’s life more difficult, but doesn’t allow himself to be a doormat either just to keep other people happy. Personally I can’t stand all that “be kind” nonsense, I’d rather there were no social currency in people portraying themselves as victims in an attempt to manipulate their way through life by attempting to guilt trip others into submission. It’s insidious behaviour IMO.

I read the whole of the Scottish guidance and most of the Irish one linked here by OEJ. The Irish one was much better written btw.

And because I have I can retrieve this:

So clearly I have read it and understood it, and all I did was pose a question in regards to the use of unusual pronouns the vast vast majority of people never heard of. Yes the guidance doesn't say if 'zie,' 'ey' or 'per' should be taught in a spelling test, and I'm just making the point - why not? I don't know what your problem with that point is tbh. A bit awkward for you maybe.

@OEJ I speed read you last contributions and I have to say that although I did reach a millstone birthday this week I think it's a bit premature to call me an "auld biddie". I think the point of that was to infer backward attitudes. I think my general points are as true today as they were 10/20 years ago and it's not as if I'm sitting here with a pipe and wool socks as if I've retired from the gay scene, and don't know what it's like now.

Yes, we have seen more social less hidden boarded up gay venues of old in recent years, like the Front Lounge in Dublin as LL pointed out, but it didn't last. We are left with the more mens bar Panti bar and The George which is really just a gay mans bar with the odd night devoted to lesbians.

I'm not going to go repeat my arguments and litter this post with distracting links like you do, but I have a lived and living reality of the gay social scene. It's seems to me OEJ, unless you have some personal experience that shows otherwise, you have bought into this whole faux idea of an LGBT world that doesn't exist. It only exists online which is just a phoney fantasy world created for political reasons.

@OEJ

But that's exactly what I'm saying to you. That's exactly why I'm saying the idea of an LGBT+ society is phoney. To repeat what I said in my last post, it doesn't exist in reality, it's just phoney. It's political, for the Left to win votes from minorities.

@OEJ

Jack, this is completely false. The London gay scene is not becoming less hedonistic, it's becoming MORE hedonistic. Anecdotally I was taking to an Irish chap I new from the London scene when I bumped into in Dublin before Covid, and asked him why he moved back to Ireland and his answer was that it has become too 'druggy'. I don't even know how it can become 'more' druggy to begin with.

So I'm saying that this idea that gay pubs and clubs are turning into Lefty like bars that the likes of metropolitan journalist's frequent in Islington, - is completely false and utterly laughable. What would you know of these things unless there's something you aren't telling us. You seem to be expressing views of a culture you have formed not through real life experience but from the internet.

The vast vast majority of gay bars in London are gay mens pick up joints, and not social bars. They always have been and always will be. They are not places to socialize as such, they are full of gay scene types who frequent the gym to show themselves off in the clubs in the hope of getting the ride, and those that take drugs on a weekly basis. The idea as you've suggested that this is something of the past is beyond ridiculous.

If a gay person wishes to socialize all they have to do is go to a straight bar. It's beyond weird to think that gay people only want to socialize with gay people. That would be extremely racist in a way. So there is no need for lgbt+ society bars in the first place. And they don't exist anyway. Lefty wine bars in Islington are a thing of course, but those kinds of places are niche.

That’s the key word in your post right there - ‘anecdotally’. It stands to reason that anyone would base more weight on their own anecdotes which are formed of their own experiences, and I’m not denying the point that there are gay bars which are frequented by gay men, but then you suggest that it’s beyond weird that gay people only want to socialise with gay people, when I never suggested that in any case. I was countering the point being made by klaz that there were no straight men in gay bars.

In his experience perhaps not, but it’s easily countered by the reality that gay bars are pretty much dying out because they’re not what they once were. More drugs your friend suggests? That’s hardly a phenomenon unique to gay bars, and certainly nothing like the actual hedonism that went on in gay bars in the past.

The reason you’re suggesting that initiatives like this in schools is to appeal to minorities simply doesn’t hold up, because minorities don’t tend to support leftist politics. It’s appealing to the well-educated, champagne socialist types who frequent more upper-class establishments than the rough and ready demographic, better quality drugs too 😂

But seriously though, initiatives like this are basically appealing to people who consider themselves ‘allies’, same place the idea of the pink pound came from, ignoring the reality of people regardless of their gender identity, sexuality or anything else who live in poverty. Initiatives like this also exist in Irish schools, but with 90% of Irish schools under Catholic patronage, they don’t get much traction, whereas schools under ET patronage which only make up a tiny percentage of schools (I think the figures are 3,000 vs 100) are the types of schools which promote this stuff. In terms of the real effects on Irish society, their influence is negligible, as opposed to the way these ideas are being portrayed as any great threat to society.

I don’t think anyone needs to panic about a takeover by socialist leftist ideology any time soon.