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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Apparently Sophie was pregnant when she was murdered.


    "Asking not to be identified, he said the disclosure came on a film set in Le Mans in late 1997. “I remember it well, it was a buffet lunch on the set and Daniel approached.

    "He knew I had written on the French reaction to the murder. Down the years, we had met regularly. He gave me a very definite impression he knew Sophie had been pregnant.

    "He talked continuously about her for about three-quarters of an hour and I hardly got a word in. I’m also sure I wasn’t the only person he talked to about the likelihood of Sophie expecting a baby. At that time, he was very annoyed about the progress of the police investigation. He also told me he was quite sure who the killer was.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Is that Sophies body in the photo?


    Where can you find pictures of the crime scene?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes, that's her body but blurred out.

    Crime scene photos only certain ones released to public, and only certain edited statements. I think people on these threads forget that sometimes.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Seems so. You can make out the stretched long johns caught on the wire and the cavity block.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,334 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Would seem counter-intuitive that the killer would go to those leengths but make no effort to conceal the body.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,693 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    It's well known on here she preferred the gate closed for security.

    What would she do when arriving at the closed gate, wait for a neighbour to help her open it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,693 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I have removed the link to that photo.

    Could I ask anyone referencing it to delete their posts also please.

    (That's TimeLadsPlease and DivilsAdvocate, thanks)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What makes you say she couldn't move it? No one as far as I'm aware ever accused Sophie of being frail.

    Were you asked to remove the picture? Odd decision if it is in the public domain.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,693 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "What makes you say she couldn't move it? "


    I'm saying the exact opposite .

    I'm saying the gate appears well hung and would not be a problem for Sophie.

    Why would she want the gate kept closed if she had a problem opening it?

    It goes back to the suggestion that Alfie was not that frail if the gate was heavy.


    I wasn't asked to remove the link to the photo, Thompsonette's post suggested it was in poor taste.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    My Grandmother was about the same build as Sophie, she was still chasing cattle around a field in her late 70's. Just because she was small and female don't assume she wasn't strong. I got a enough slaps off granny to never make that mistake again.

    Quote deleted as you request.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Looking at a picture of the gate online it seems to be hung top and bottom on eyelets attached to a steel I-beam well embedded in the ground. No string visible. I reckon it's fairly solid and has enough ground clearance to not drag the ground or need to be lifted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    I can't seem to delete? It's just giving me an edit option?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,157 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Yet, nothing was found!

    One thing to kill another to hide a body and another again to leave incriminating evidence behind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,334 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Yeah, hiding the body is a much more straightforward and obvious thing to do than conducting a thorough forensic cleanup of a messy and extensive crime scene.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,157 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Is it in practice? It will probably be found anyway unless you go to move it elsewhere and risk detection. No useful forensic evidence found, why? Was there a cleanup attempt?

    Post edited by saabsaab on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Good luck gathering up and hiding that body. Don't forget to wash the copious amounts of blood off the road as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I remember that case.

    What I don't get is that Sophie was only at the cottage for a couple of days before Christmas, not even a week. The reason for that trip from France to that cottage was apparently something regarding the heating of the cottage. She was due to fly back to France on the 24th to spend Christmas with the family?

    I find it therefore strange to believe that Bailey would in these short couple of days know that she was there, visit her house in the middle of the night and kill her? And out of what precise motive? And how could Bailey have known that Sophy was at her cottage during these short days before Christmas?

    Most murder cases are in my understanding either about money/inheritance, drugs or some kind of intimate / sexual matter. Drugs seemed out of the question in this case, and something intimate / sexual between Bailey and Sophie can be ruled out. Bailey was in a relationship with his partner, and apparently wasn't known for chasing other women in the area. And if it was money, I wouldn't point to Bailey either, I'd look at Sophie's husband in France or her former lover in France. I often think that the possibility of her husband having hired a contract killer to track her down and kill her was not really investigated by police. Anybody planning a contract killing would at least have known the exact dates when Sophie would have been at the cottage. However the weapon would most likely have been a gun, rather than a stone and a brick...

    Strange case, it sure is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,150 ✭✭✭Talisman


    It should have been possible to ascertain if the John Reilly individual had indeed existed. Marie Farrell said that she knew him as a teenager, he was 3-4 years older than her. Somebody in Longford that had known them should have been able to at least confirm that the two were known to each other. If he was in Cork during December 1996 then you would expect him to have mentioned it to somebody he knew, even if this was somebody in the UK. It's thankless donkey work for the police but it's the kind of thing that you would expect to make or break the case.

    If two pieces of information could be confirmed:

    • Marie Farrell knew John Reilly in Longford as she stated.
    • John Farrell had traveled to Ireland around Christmas time in December 1996.

    On the balance of probabilities you would have to accept her statement that he was a passenger in the car on that night is more likely to be true. If there is no traceable contact between the two of them then it would be a remarkable coincidence that the individual named just happened to have traveled from the UK to Cork in that time period.

    However if it could be shown that he had not traveled then it's the end of Marie Farrell's evidence and everything that stemmed from it - this is a massive pain point for the gardai.

    According to Senan Molloy, the journalists were told that a man was seen at Kealfadda bridge washing his boots. Marie Farrell has denied making such a statement. It's mentioned in the podcast that for it to be true the individual would have had to be on the driver's side of the road. My thinking is that the individual who briefed the journalists about the sighting of the man surmised that if it was the person of interest that was seen there then he must have gone there to wash his boots.

    Almost everything about Marie Farrell's involvement in the case is problematic.

    From the list of gardai named in the Irish Times article linked above, Marie Farrell claimed she had dubious interactions with all but one of them. She has singlehandedly screwed the investigation - she wasted valuable time and resources. She should have been charged and prosecuted for doing so. Instead they "left the door open" for her to tell them what they needed to hear, in doing so they damaged their investigation further and handed Ian Bailey an opportunity to drive a bus through the gaps.

    Det Garda Jim FitzGerald

    • alleged misbehaviour and malpractice
    • alleged to have taken a false statement
    • tried to prevent a complaint of assault against her husband

    Insp Maurice Walsh

    • alleged Walsh exposed himself

    Garda Kevin Kelleher

    • alleged that Kelleher showed him a video of Ian Bailey on December 28th, 1996.
    • introduced her to Det Garda Jim Fitzgerald and Det Garda Jim Slattery at his house
    • alleged he was present at Ballydehob Garda Station on February 14th, 1997, when she signed blank statements.
    • alleged he told her she would be arrested if she did not testify at the 2003 libel action.

    Det Garda Jim Slattery

    • was the first detective to have contact with Marie Farrell, taking a statement from her on December 27th, 1996
    • alleged he was present at Ballydehob Garda Station on February 14th, 1997, when she signed blank statements.

    Chief supt Dermot Dwyer

    • alleged Dwyer urged her to stick by her story when she testified in the 2003 libel action.

    Dwyer told the High Court that “even the biggest liar that ever walked tells the truth sometimes” and he believed Farrell was telling the truth in her statement identifying Bailey.

    Det Supt Ted Murphy

    He told the court that he knew by May 1997 that Marie Farrell was lying about who she was with on the night that she said she seen Ian Bailey at Kealfadda Bridge, but gardaí remained anxious to corroborate her evidence through identifying her companion on the night.


    He agreed he told a district court in January 1998 that Farrell was a key witness and although he decided after three meetings with her that there was no point in pursuing the matter any further, gardaí “left the door open” to see if she could resolve her problems in identifying her companion.

    Det Chief Supt Seán Camon

    • asked Malachy Boohig (State solicitor) to approach his former UCC classmate, then minister for justice John O’Donoghue, to get him to get the DPP to direct a charge against Bailey.

    In the civil case taken by Ian Bailey, the jury heard recordings of calls made to Schull Garda Station by Marie Farrell. It was claimed she had made 30 out of the 34 recorded calls and she denied that she was responsible for the "large bulk" of contact. That is absolute madness and should be a strong indication that the woman was in no way a reliable source of information.

    The remainder of the available evidence is like a pick'n'mix - if you want Bailey for the murder then you select the statements and conjecture that fit. However it would seem that each piece of evidence in the public domain can be explained away if you look at them with an open mind. That being the case a trial by jury is never likely to bring a conviction against Ian Bailey.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Apparently the man Marie Farrell has described was not as tall as Ian Bailey. Thus I often think that there was somebody else doing the murders. Also Bailey's DNA, fingerprints etc. were never found on the crime scene or in Sophie's house. And since forensics arrived rather late, it's most likely not possible to determine an exact time of death.

    If you're familiar with the area, the walk from Sophie's house to Kealfadda bridge is quite a long walk, and to be taken at night. Kealfadda bridge would have been the first opportunity on that way to wash away evidence, whatever one needed to wash. Anybody planning this murder would not have faced the risk of walking blood stained all that way. Anybody driving from Dunmanus to Kealfadda bridge would have seen Ian Bailey walking at the side of the road as well, or Bailey would have at least run the risk of being seen walking on that road at a certain time.

    I also think that if Ian did it, his partner Jules Thomas would have to have been an accessory of some sort, helping disposing of blood stained clothes, and knowing what had happened. It's hard to imagine Ian returning totally blood stained, and possibly wet from washing at Kealfadda bridge and hiding this from Jules and the daughters. I mean, it would have been different if Ian would have been a loner, also living alone. We also know from his partner Jules Thomas that Ian had a drinking habit and known to be violent at times towards her. So she could easily have freed herself of a violent relationship with him by talking to the Guards, but that didn't happen as well.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    But if you consider charging Marie Farrell then you absolutely have to charge all the guards who put pressure on her and told/influenced what they wanted her to say.

    Absolutely ridiculous to charge her considering it was the gardai who led her down that path and quite rightly there would be uproar if she was charged and nothing happened to the gardai involved.

    In regards to 30 of the 34 calls being made by her, thats because she was told when and where to call the gardai.

    Thats how the whole lying operation was uncovered, Bailey had an appointment with the gardai in Schull one day and the gardai got Marie Farrell to ring in a complaint of intimidation by Bailey at or around the time of his meeting. Well as it turned out Ian Bailey didn't turn up for that meeting and instead met with Frank Buttimer that day, no one informed Marie Farrell that Bailey hadn't shown up and she went ahead and made the complaint as asked. Which was then easily proved as false and Buttimer sent her a legal letter informing her to stop what she was doing as they could prove she was lying.

    I really can't see how Marie Farrell could be charged without charging the guards involved with putting her up to it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,150 ✭✭✭Talisman


    That's precisely the point. If you take Marie Farrell out of the 'evidence', all that remains is hearsay. The investigation was bungled by the gardai and that is to put it lightly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Gardai bungled it up in many ways. Forensics arrived very late which was probably the biggest mistake they've made, the exact time of death was never really determined. This alone makes the investigation more difficult and the number of possibilities opens more and more.

    Fingerprints, DNA was never recovered, a motive was also never established, and nearly all of the investigation focused only on Ian Bailey. Suppose if neither fingerprints nor DNA can be found, than at least they would have to have found a motive. And the only motive that Ian Bailey wanted a story to write about and commit murder just for that, is a bit far fetched to me, also as he made a living as a freelance journalist with or without that murder happening.

    Bailey may have been an unsympathetic guy, drinker, bad writer, but to me it sounds a bit strange that Bailey gets out of bed in the dead of night, walks over to Sophie's house, with intention of murder, to a house which was more used like a holiday home, and where Bailey didn't even know she would be in that house or not, then hikes to Kealfadda bridge to wash up and then return home to Jules and Jules doesn't notice anything. And that all could only have been accomplished unless Bailey had known Sophie before, known her better, known that she would be at the house at that time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Is this Ian Bailey at Sophies House?

    If so does anyone know when they were taken and by whom?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Yes, this is Sophie's house. Whether the man in the picture is Bailey, I can't say.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's a few days after when he went up to Alfies with briquettes. He was obviously going to get info and have a nose. He's a journalist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭tibruit


    No long black coat.....must have been in the wash.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You mean the one he was wearing on Christmas day at the swim lol... That the Gards subsequently seized and couldn't find a trace of anything on?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Everyone assumes he wore a long black coat on the night.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭mossie




This discussion has been closed.
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