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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,560 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    So for you multiculturalism, which had feck all to do with most of the changes in Irish society post Church rule, is again the novelty of the exotic? 

    Nope. I'm not repeating myself, I posted about it in detail here before. It gets little response when I do, and then I drop in here a few weeks later to see the same arguments being repeated that multiculturalism is only about exoticism.

    As for the collection of people to within a specific sector. I don't see any evidence to support that as being a hard and fast rule. Sure you have clusters that live in specific areas but that is not to suggest that the vast majority of people of that background seek to live in that area just that a large enough cluster of people do so for it to be identified as such.

    Are there Muslim people living in Ireland? Yes, are they all living in the same area? No. Same goes for Chinese, Polish, Nigerian etc.

    My point about temp workers is that there is a need for such workers, or are you suggesting that people who originated outside the EU could not do such tasks?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,560 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    You say that like these areas do not already have significant numbers of White European people living there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,560 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    And you want simple answers that apply to all people and all situations.

    Case in point, you have focused on the seasonal work (which at least you are not denying that needs to be done) and ignoring my other reference to hospitality and service industries.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We have thousands of people applying for asylum every year from all over the world, and even now it's still happening from countries hoping for EU accession. They do it as a way to get into a country knowing full well there is practically zero chance of ever been deported. It's why people are disgusted that our systems are being abused year in year out by chancers backed up by the asylum industry and the politicians.



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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Romania is a full EU member. Romanians have the right to freedom of movement for work. Why would they look for asylum?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What's going on with Michel Barnier? The ultimate EU poster boy, who first called a few months ago for a 5 year halt to non-EU immigration and has now said:

    "We must regain our legal sovereignty in order to no longer be subject to the judgement of the ECJ or the ECHR"

    I know he's trying to run for election but still strange days indeed... He's 100% right on the following:

    He called the "EU’s external borders a sieve”.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    God, I know that. They were looking for it before in order to get in and circumvent our immigration system. The asylum system is a joke. We still have people from other EU accession hopeful countries arriving here every year claiming asylum. They do it because the system is broken and they know there is practically zero chance of ever been removed.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ok, so no reason they would look for asylum then.

    that's the question I put to Wibbs



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There was back then. There are plenty of other countries nationals doing the same thing right now, i.e. Georgia and Albania



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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not what he said though. Which is why I asked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Needs to distinguish himself from the other runners in a crowded Conservative field, he'd drop all that stuff quick smart if he was elected


    Eric Zemmour is having quite the effect over there it seems 🤣



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And you want simple answers that apply to all people and all situations.

    I do? Really. Actually, I have an MBA, studied economics as part of my Bachelor and Honors degree, and I think I'll be able to follow your more complex answers. If they make logical sense, that is. Admittedly, economics tends to bore me, and I haven't kept up to date, but I have most of the basics.

    Case in point, you have focused on the seasonal work (which at least you are not denying that needs to be done) and ignoring my other reference to hospitality and service industries.

    haha.. seriously?

    there are frequent reports from the hospitality and service industry about the difficulty in getting workers.

    That was your input/suggestion. Seasonal work... tourism tends to be seasonal in Ireland... and I already addressed the service industry in my previous post. Love that your one liner is more suitable than my longer post.. How much simpler could I need an answer to be? Hilarious.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    For a start I wasn't replying to you, unless your handle is Gsi300024V. Though you did avoid the ghettoisation trend observed in every single nation that runs this social/political experiment, running with the not all gambit. Fish live in the sea. Not all fish! Nope, but a huge number of them do. It's basic human nature that no blank slate philosophy will change any time soon.

    I note you twist my observation about migrant workers into "but can't non EU people do those tasks?". That's not the point, as usual and as well you know yourself. As usual. The point was the majority of such workers come from the EU, so why seek to import people from across the world often with non European standards of education and culture and who unlike the EU workers who are here legally and often temporarily, non EU migrants are more likely to stay and piece meal seasonal work means more likely to end up on social support? As I pointed out just about one third of all housing benefits are paid to non EU migrant groups. There are economically deprived areas within the EU, so why aren't we seeking to bring them in? Would that not be multicultural?

    Zambia is 99.2% Black African. Cambodia is 99% East Asian. Tanzania out of 45 million have less than 10,000 White Europeans. For Myanmar the numbers are even smaller, so nope I'm afraid. I notice you studiously - though as above shows not quite studiously enough - didn't answer my question. As usual.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    You're dead right. My mistake, I meant Albania. Ukraine is another in the same mix. Hardly the gotcha moment you seem to think it is.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,560 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    The observation of the continued and growing movement and integration of people throughout the planet is not a thought experiment, irrespective of the desire to classify it as such.

    Pointing out that such work could be done by people already in the country was very much the point irrespective of what narrow focus you want to shift it to in order to continue the narrative that is going on on this thread. You mention 'seeking to bring people in' and would that not be multicultural. That suggests you think it would be which further demonstrates the multicultural nature of life throughout many western countries today.

    As for comments about demographics in other countries, first result from wikipedia;

    'White Tanzanian is a term which can apply to people from Tanzania who are of European or White African's descent and who do not regard themselves, or are not regarded as, being part of another racial group. 20,000 belong to different European groups'.....

    Did you have a question?



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Never suggested any kind of gotcha. Just surprised that you are not aware of what countries are in the EU, seeing as you are.so concerned with immigration!

    I believe there are approx half a million non Irish people living in ireland.

    not so many really.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hold on a second. Half a million non Irish living in Ireland isn't many? Considering Ireland just reached a population of five million, 500k non-Irish is a pretty large percentage of the overall population.

    I know this has been asked before, but what kind of percentage would/should be reached before you consider it to be enough or too much?

    Now, perhaps look at African or Asian countries and compare Ireland to their overall population along with the foreign born populations... You'll find a much higher rate of natives vs foreign born.

    You see Bubbly, I'm still waiting for a comprehensive explanation as to why it's so wonderful that Ireland should have such a high foreign born population. [Yes, yes, I know many of them will be Irish citizens now. I don't really talk much about citizenship.. that's an argument others are much better at handling.] Perhaps explain to me why having such a percentage of non-natives is such a good thing... and while @Tell me how might believe I want really simple answers, I'd much rather some answers detailed enough to display the sound logic behind them.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs



    A thought experiment? I didn't define it as such. More twisting of pretty clear wording. But no matter, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. It is most certainly a politic and one that is almost entirely a feature of Western thought and your "growing movement" is again almost entirely a Western feature. Where's this "movement and integration" of White Europeans to non White European nations? Oh that's right, there isn't one. Again; Tanzania out of 45 million have fewer than 10,000 White Europeans. Myanmar, Zambia and Camodia fewer again. I'm afraid there's not much wriggle in your wriggle room.

    And again you avoid my direct question: What non White Western nation do you consider could be so improved by the addition of a large influx of pale Europeans? Forget the palefaces; do you think more Asians in Africa, or Africans in Asia is a good thing? If we're talking about all these wonderful if nebulous plus points of Western multiculturalism, surely we should spread such advantages around out of the same sense of, how did you phrase it; "empathy, social awareness or moral duty"? Any nation will do. The world is your oyster. Though I continue to find it interesting and informative that this multicultural pearl is only to be found in White Western nations.


    Your first sentence is an all too clumsy and transparent continuation of the gotcha stuff.

    Out of a population of five million, half a million is a little more than "not so many". But you know that and continue in your thin argument of nothing to see here. Clearly there is or you'd not be nearly so invested in avoiding said nothing.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,560 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    These were your words; 'Though you did avoid the ghettoisation trend observed in every single nation that runs this social/political experiment' If you don't want me to twist your words in to implying you are suggesting something as a thought experiment maybe don't describe it as such.

    I've already posted that Tanzania has greater than 20K White Europeans, if you want to talk about wiggle room then so be it, have at it, but at least accept this figure or counter it. You know, as well as I do that wester countries are more developed in many respects in terms of quality of life, It is therefore not surprising that the migration of people will be predominantly in one direction. But that is not to say there is no interest in the culture in the less developed world but that when people in wester countries have it good, why would they leave. And, as you know, when they don't have it good, they do leave.

    Now that you have finally posted a question, that depends on what these palefaces (or others) as you refer to are coming to do. If they are coming to live, integrate and contribute to the community, then why would any country not be in the better of such people? Why do you think more Asians in Africa or Africans in Asia would be a bad thing? What did you mean by 'a large influx'? Have you a figure in mind? What evidence have you seen in Ireland that suggests to you that the Irish culture and markedly different ones are incompatible with each other?



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    If you don't want me to twist your words in to implying you are suggesting something as a thought experiment maybe don't describe it as such.

    A thought experiment is where a hypothesis exists as a mental construct and the results and consequences are considered before or instead of it being tried in the real world. That's not what I described. Muliticulturalism as a politic is most certainly practiced in the real world.

    I've already posted that Tanzania has greater than 20K White Europeans, if you want to talk about wiggle room then so be it, have at it, but at least accept this figure or counter it.

    Depending on the source Tanzania has either 10 or 20,000 White Europeans, but OK let's stick with the higher figure. The population of Tanzania is 56 million. Ireland with a population of 5 million under a tenth of the population of Tanzania has triple that number of Black Africans according to the 2011 census. Bit of a difference there.

    But that is not to say there is no interest in the culture in the less developed world but that when people in wester countries have it good, why would they leave. And, as you know, when they don't have it good, they do leave.

    Indeed they do, but almost exclusively legally and to nations where they don't end up on social support, if social support is even available and most commonly to ex European colonies. The vast majority of European migration was to such nations and in the past where there was pretty much zero governmental social support. No dole, no fast tracked housing. Bit of a difference there too. It also seems you do agree that such migrations that lead to multicultural societies in Europe are driven by economic migration.

    Now that you have finally posted a question

    I've posted that question and more countless times. The answers if they come tend to be ambiguous at best, though I did think framing it with the inclusion of Asians in Africa or Africans in Asia would make it easier and some answer might be forthcoming. That was the bait as it were. You didn't quite bite though and went the "large influx" angle. But OK let's run with that too. May as well take Tanzania again for the craic. To equal the numbers of Ireland and her experience of multiculturalism, Tanzania's population of White Europeans would need to be close to one million people coming into that country in a period of about ten years, overwhelmingly into urban areas and with a significant percentage requiring social support. You'd be cool with that? Oh and East Asians, particularly the Chinese disapora are already causing problems with the locals in a few African nations. The takeaway from that article and others is: In much of Africa today, China is the imperialist power.

    What evidence have you seen in Ireland that suggests to you that the Irish culture and markedly different ones are incompatible with each other?

    Wiki Nigerians in Ireland. However, they are strongly likely to feel that they do not have many values in common with Irish people.[36] Strongly mind you. If value systems are so incompatible that's a bit of an issue. That's just one group of people.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No, I don't think it's so many at all.

    I already said, I don't believe in a percentage or number for foreign people living here. I don't care where anyone comes from. I believe people should work and contribute to society. Both Irish people and foreign.

    I don't need to explain why it's a good idea. It just is. I see no need to make any kind argument for immigration. Likewise, if there was no immigration into this country, I wouldn't care either, I wouldn't be making arguments for.

    if people wish to come here, I have no issue with that. If they dont, I have no issue with that.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    I don't need to explain why it's a good idea.

    Good lord. I know now not to ask your opinion on anything. Ok Bubblypop,have it your way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


     "I believe people should work and contribute to society." - A third of non-EU migrants on social welfare would suggest that that is not happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Before 2007 Romanian Roma Gypsies came here in droves looking for asylum, claiming discrimination and oppression. They were just as discriminated and oppressed there as the Irish Travelers are here, that is, not at all, but here they will get free housing and welfare.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Agreed and plenty of Irish. I think this needs to be tackled.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You do Roma gypsies are not just Romanian right?

    And that was then. Not now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭Cordell


    It was then which is not too long ago and it highlights that the asylum system can be, will and is abused by people not deserving the status of asylum seeker. They are still here, they still receive housing and benefits and we still pay for them.

    And I know exactly what this particular ethnic group is and what it's not.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Most things can and are abused by people.

    Romanians do not claim asylum now, so not sure what difference it makes that once upon a time they did?

    So, you do know that Roma gypsies are not just Romanian then



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,746 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    The pro mass immigration/multiculturalism/plantation argument has now devolved to: “500,000 (out of 5 million) isn’t a big number” and “I don’t need to explain why I’m right, I just am”.

    Absurdities deployed to defend increasingly indefensible positions.



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