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Crypto tax situation - Read post 1 for thread banned users

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭makeorbrake


    The person has lived overseas for more than three years.

    To your other point - re. effectively claiming residency through having the crypto account - that's correct - account is only available to someone who would ordinarily be resident in Ireland. So in fibbing to gain access to the account, the person would come to the attention of revenue - and would be pursued and taxed on the basis of being IRL resident regardless of any clarification provided?

    So it may not be as simple an interpretation as - you were'nt straight with us on opening your account - we're closing it....rather ...the consequence is we ( revenue ) are now going to treat you as tax resident?

    It is messy as the only way to exploit the arbitrage is to have a local account in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,251 ✭✭✭massdebater


    It is possible revenue could chase you for that, yeah. Especially if you're cashing out gains that are being funnelled through Irish crypto and bank accounts. No idea how likely this is though.

    What is the arbitrage opportunity here? I'd be interested to hear, I live overseas too. Surely sending cash and crypto over and back to Ireland isn't the most efficient way of doing things?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭makeorbrake


    Arbitrage opportunities can arise on a geographical basis - and more often than not, countries with capital controls or restrictions of one type or another are implicated. The Kimchi premium in S.Korea is one example. In that case, the local price of bitcoin is higher than the international average. It's difficult to exploit though as it implicates the same banking difficulties...unless someone wants to walk cash out of the country - and of course that's not practical.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,175 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I'm not paying 50% and am bothered enough by Irish taxation I am planning to emigrate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,175 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Sounds like the person isn't normally tax resident in Ireland, so the tax would be rated and payable in the country of tax residency. I don't think that 3 year nonsense would have any bearing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22 Cavanbhoy


    Any idea on how cashback on crypto.com is treated. Eg if i receive cashback of 500cro valued at 13c each and cash them out for fiat is that tax free.

    How do I prove it was the cashback cro I exchanged verus cro I purchased.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5 pnp7


    Koinly is breaking my heart here lads.

    It will only allow me to import the crypto.com exchange and not the actual retail app where most buys/sells where done.

    Huobi exchange - 'Huobi requires beta access'.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Koinly works fine for me but I manually download and import. The sync works with the exchange not the app



  • Registered Users Posts: 5 pnp7


    Cheers. Do you know if I can import both the app and the exchange?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've no idea, I've never tried. But I did have to reset my koinly and import all again it got messed up



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭antimatterx


    Does anyone have a spreadsheet they use to keep track of buys / sell so they know there tax liability if they sell? Would you be willing to share?

    Can we offset fees (transaction fees, d fees to wallets etc)



  • Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭mcriot29


    So let me get this straight the profit from the bitcoin is 33% CGT is that it or any more taxes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,251 ✭✭✭massdebater


    From price increase alone, yes that's the only tax. If you're earning interest on your bitcoin, you might have to pay additional taxes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭mcriot29


    No interest just at point when I sell I want to know cheers for that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭FGR


    Does anyone know of the existence of any tax advisors or accountants that specialise in crypto? I wish I was in a position where I'd need one to make me tax compliant with my vast crypto fortune.

    Call it future planning? Optimal thinking? 😅



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 691 ✭✭✭jmlad2020


    Never kept track of all my crypto trades. Is Koinly the best option? Can I just import straight from my Exchange and it generates the CGT? Would save a lot of hassle!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭Lorne Malvo


    If a person moves to a country with a double tax treaty with Ireland, does the 3 year tax domicile resident rule still apply?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,785 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    But you can get that grant regardless of selling crypto. Of regardless, you’re hit for -$3.3k in tax.

    Sending to a spouse would become their asset, and future profits would be liable to CGT.

    Short answer. No.

    Exemptions are individual.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,175 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The 3 year 'rule' is a legal nonsense and can be ignored by anyone truly emigrating permanently.

    No irish laws have jurisdiction in foreign countries, and that goes double for people who become residents of a foreign country or who are ordinarily resident there.

    If a person did make a financial transaction that was relevant under the rule, and returned to Ireland and Irish legal jurisdiction, then the rule would become relevant, but Revenue would be unlikely to have any way to be aware the transaction/s took place if the financial institutions involved had the individulas residential address as being in that country. Financial institutions only have an obligation to report transactions to foreign tax authorities for accounts where the residential address of the customer is in that foreign country.

    So if someone were to emigrate to Greece, set up financial accounts with their address being in Greece, no information is going to be sent to Revenue about what transpires on those accounts. You could dispose of assets 6 months after moving to Athens and the only people who would possibly be informed would be the Greek tax authorities. Your tax obligation would be to Greece, not Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,785 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    There’s no such thing as ordinarily resident in other countries. Your either a tax resident, or you’re not.

    And obviously foreign transactions to foreign accounts are not reporting to revenue within the 3 years. But the 3 years becomes relevant to people who hold assets in the state.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭Lorne Malvo


    well guys,

    I've being dca'ing into a few different cryptos over the past few months over different exchanges. I've also being trading from crypto to crypto a few times; mostly at a loss but occasionally a small profit at times. My question; I am aware of FIFO but how is one going to start filing a tax return for such a messy portfolio and how likely will revenue be in auditing if profits are minimal? will any random accountant be familiar with crypto investments?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Use Koinly to keep track it does exactly what you need



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,175 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The first €1,270 of capital gain you make each year, is exempt from CGT. So if your profits are actually minimal and less than that, an audit isn't going to be a problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,182 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    I did 2 crypto to crypto trades this year. However, I was unaware that they were taxable at the time. I was wondering if I sold 1/3 of my crypto asset (LINK) at a loss now, several months later, will that reduce my tax bill as long as I don't buy any more crypto for 30 days? I just want to make absolutely sure because I saw this example on the Revenue's website, which I've copied below, and don't want to make any mistake about what I owe. I would assume this rule applies to carrying forward losses to future gains, not selling at loss to offset past gains?


    • Example 2On 1 April 2017, both Jane and Kevin individually bought 3,000 ordinary shares in Abcee Ltd for €3,000.
    • They both then sold their shares on 14 April 2017 for €2,000, making a loss of €1,000.
    • Jane did not buy any more ordinary shares in Abcee Ltd within four weeks making the loss. She cannot set her loss against any gain she may make.
    • Kevin bought more ordinary shares in Abcee Ltd on 21 April 2017. If Kevin makes a gain on the disposal of these shares in the future, he can deduct his loss of €1,000.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The example you give from the Revenue website is specifically about buying and selling again within a four-week period, to which special rules apply. That's not your situation.

    The general rule is that, if you sell at a loss in this tax year, you can set that loss off against (a) any gains accruing to you in this tax year, regardless of whether they were accrued before or after the loss, or (b) any gains accruing to you in future tax years. But you can't set your loss accruing this year off against gains which accrued in previous tax years.

    So, from what you say have already accrued gains in this tax year. If you now losses in this tax year, you will be able to set those losses off against the gains.



  • Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭Xaniaj


    Does anyone use koinly? Considering just buying a subscription if it works here



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes, it's free to use, you pay for the annual tax cert if you need one



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭FFVII




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    API from Coinbase and Celsius, upload from Crypto.com



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  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭Sparkling Gamorreans


    If you're a PAYE worker can you put your PPS number in the "tax reference number" field at the top of a CG1?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,108 ✭✭✭relax carry on




  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭Sparkling Gamorreans


    Can you upload the form via PAYE online or must you post it in?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,108 ✭✭✭relax carry on


    Download the pdf version. Complete it and upload to Revenue via MyEnquiries to save yourself time and effort.



  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭Sparkling Gamorreans




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭dougal0691


    how should airdrops be treated? koinly automatically treats it as income so I assume that's correct.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 445 ✭✭HGVRHKYY


    Yes, but then the issue is if you relocate back to Ireland within those 3 years, or probably even shortly afterwards, and you have a huge chunk of wealth suddenly, revenue would obviously find out about what's transpired elsewhere if you were to get audited; that would be a lot more likely if you made large purchases upon returning to Ireland, such as purchasing an expensive home, new car etc.

    If you do plan on living abroad for a long time, or permanently, then yeah it'd probably be fine. But anywhere within the EU would be risky considering the intra EU cooperation between countries



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79 ✭✭borderfox11


    question on altcoins bought with bitcoin back in 2018 - can any losses be written off here if the value of the altcoin denominated in bitcoin terms has resulted in a loss? There would be a gain in terms of dollar value

    thanks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,175 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I did say emigrate permanently. I have looked into this and given it some thought as it's exactly what I intend to do. There is a 10 year statute of limitations so that would be fine also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,108 ✭✭✭relax carry on


    I'm curious as to what 10 year statute of limitations you are referring to?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,175 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    It appears there isn't any limitation. I had assumed there was from a conversation with a solicitor some years ago when they told me they were advising people who had insoluble debt problems due to the GFC, to leave the country for a decade. Still, Revenue have no means to investigate the financial affairs of people living in foreign countries, so it's moot.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,108 ✭✭✭relax carry on


    I'll refer to you the below Tax and Duty manual which shows how tax authorities can share or request information from another tax authority so you point may not be exactly moot.

    Guide to Exchange of Information under Council Directive 2011/16/EU, Ireland’s Double Taxation Agreements and TaxI information Exchange Agreements and the OECD/Council of Europe Convention on Mutual Administrative Assistance in Tax Matters.

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-35/35-01-01a.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,175 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Those are pretty broad, can you point me to the bit in them enabling Revenue to request tax and financial information on an individual who was resident in those countries at the relevant time?



  • Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭mdmix


    so I have just been offered a job in Europe and have the option of 2 locations, one of which is Lisbon. I have a few days to make up my mind and will be moving next month. Just wondering what the crypto tax situation would be if I moved to Lisbon?

    Obviously CGT on any existing profits would need to be payed to revenue (I'm fine with this), but do I automatically avoid any future liabilities to revenue if Im working and paying tax in another jurisdiction?

    If for example, I have €10k in bitcoin at the time of leaving, and bitcoin did a 3x next year when I am in another jurisdiction, I would be able to avoid the tax on the potential 20k new profit. Anything preventing this from working out? Anything special I need to do for proof, or just keep good records?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,175 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    There is the paranoid answer and there is the alternative answer. The former is thart there is a 3 year rule, wherin if you dispose of assets acquired while an Irish taxpayer, within 3 years of becoming a taxpayer in another country, you are deemed liable to pay Revenue the CGT. I'd imagine if that foreign tax authority wanted CGT on the disposal, they would have first dibbs on it then Revenue would want the balance up to their 33%.

    The latter is that Irish laws do not apply to people not living in Ireland - local laws apply. There are international agreements on exchanging financial transaction information, so If your residential address is in Ireland, but you have bank and other financial accounts in foreign countries, deposits and positive credits on those accounts will be communicated to Revenue. But this process is entirely dependent on your residential address for those accounts, so if you move to Portugal and open bank/crypto/share trading accounts in that country with the address being Lisbon, no information will be sent to Revenue, so if 2 years after moving you sell your bitcoin, the Portuguese tax authorities may be informed, but Revenue will not.

    The 3 year rule is a wholly unreasonable nonsense, IMO, just like VRT, DIRT tax and the business with ETFs and you having to regularly pay any CGT on them as if you had sold them, even if you haven't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭ghoulfinger


    Seems I won’t have to worry about tax for my €200 or so worth of crypto 😇



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You wouldn't have to worry about it anyway - that's within the small gains exemption. If I were you I'd make my decision on location based on lifestyle considerations, not tax considerations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2 HolyPepa


    If you sold bitcoin or used it to buy goods and services, you will owe taxes if the realized value (the sale price of bitcoin, for example) is more than the price at which you bought bitcoin. There's a chance you'll have a capital gain, that's taxable at both short- and long-term rates. There is a very efficient way to lower the tax, or do avoid paying it completely. To be able to do so, you need a crypto license https://ecommerce-broker.eu/en/Licenses/crypto-license-in-estonia/, which gives you these options.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,175 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    If you use crypto to pay for goods directly, you might want to consider how visible your CGT gain is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 445 ✭✭HGVRHKYY


    "You must file by 31 October in the year after the date of disposal"


    Just thinking about the CGT return now, does this mean if we disposed of crypto this year, we don't need to file our CGT returns until 31 October 2022? But we need to pay the actual liability this year?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭antimatterx


    Exactly, unless you sell in December. Then you pay in January.



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