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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's more a question what "dirty" means here.

    Sophie wasn't exactly an angel either.

    She had an affair already early into her second marriage with Bruno Carbonnet.

    It is often suggested that she may have had another affair with Karl Heinz Wolney a German musician often playing at venues in Crookhaven.

    Just by this behaviour of Sophie, I wouldn't rule out some kind of sexual motive to the murder. Some ex-lover out for revenge, jealousy, something like that.....

    And then there was her husband, and the possibility of a messy and expensive divorce.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    Fair play to VM1 airing a full interview with Ian Bailey on Monday night.

    The recent national broadcast with Sophie's Son, demanding Ireland repay the some of the favours the French have bestowed upon Ireland, was a little bit stomach churning to be honest...

    We don't present sacrificial lambs just to appease the froggies, we have a capable justice system in place thanks very much...

    Of course you can feel his pain, and we all want justice for Sophie too.. But throwing the first guy you dislike under the bus is not going to heal the wounds.

    Ian Bailey has been vilified for 25yrs now... He has been deprived of any normal life, denied a career, berated, slandered, threatened, ostracized and nationally been blamed for the brutal Murder of a French Mother, Wife & Daughter.

    He has been convicted and sentenced to 25yrs without setting foot in a Court of Law. (Convicted & sentenced without one shred of evidence)

    He is homeless.

    He cannot indulge in any social media platform without being bombarded with messages of hate.

    This has been going on for 25yrs. Each day and every day.

    They say he drinks too much.... Would you not??? Do you want to live that existence in a sober world..??

    He's opinionated, eccentric, egotistical..... So what? None of these traits are a crime?

    He has vehemently denied any involvement in the murder of Sophie Du Plantier. He has begged consistently for the case to be re-investigated. He has written to the Governments top brass requesting a full cold case review. He has stated he wants justice for Sophie.

    I'm looking forward to what he has to say.. And hopefully somewhere in the corridors of power, a bell will ring, somebody will have the ball's to say its time to air the dirty laundry... Lets review the case, lets get justice for Sophie Du Plantier..

    And lets get justice for Ian Bailey..



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe



    I honestly wouldn't care about Bailey if he would rot in jail somewhere, if he actually really did it. If he would have gotten convicted in a trial where actual evidence has been seen, where witnesses where cross exanimated. However that all did clearly not take place.

    Ultimately the problem lies with the judge passing a sentence without any evidence or witnesses. We don't even have a motive. This puts the French judicial system in a very bad light. A sentence without evidence and witnesses is more something like in a "banana republic" or some autocratic dictatorship but not on an EU country the likes of France.

    It's also not so much "appeasing the froggies" as you described, but more "appeasing Sophie's family". Thus I'd say the judge was biased, other explanation I don't have here. After all, she was a well known TV producer and bias comes even more into play, if there is no evidence at all.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    After all, she was a well known TV producer

    I think it was more her husband who was famous but she would have moved in those elite circles as his wife. You would be doing well to find much tv work credited to Sophie. As far as I know there is not a single recorded interview of her in existence.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,332 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    And then there was her husband, and the possibility of a messy and expensive divorce.

    I struggle to see this as a motive for murder for a man like him. Why should it be particularly 'messy' anyway; seems like a typical 'mutual consent' breakup.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,150 ✭✭✭Talisman


    When the murder investigation team traveled to the crime scene they asked for the body to be relocated to the morgue. They were told that they required permission from the higher ups to do so. Word came down that the body was to remain in place until the State Pathologist had visited the scene. There's a clip in the documentary where the garda said that given the structure of the force they had to follow those instructions. We know from other sources that when he had been informed of the death in mysterious circumstances in West Cork that John Harbison had asked for the body to be moved to the morgue in Cork City because he wouldn't be in a position to travel until the following day. His instructions were never carried out.

    I don't think the question has ever been put to Dermot Dwyer as to why the decision not to move the body was made. It robbed the investigation of an accurate time of death which given the circumstances was a vital piece of information.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Well, with Sophie's second husband, there was certainly way more money involved than with Ian Bailey. And money can always be a motive. Also a divorce in the focus of the public of a well known TV producer is seldom not messy, gossip and cheap coverage of certain magazines/ media included.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,332 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I'd say the judge was biased, other explanation I don't have here. After all, she was a well known TV producer and bias comes even more into play

    "You are required to reach a verdict on the murder of one of the prettiest, most distinguished producers in the history of this country. Or not, as you may think."



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Surely if it was known that the state pathologist would not be there until the following day it would have been wise to have a local doctor make some observations e.g. ambient temperature, body temperature, degree of rigor mortis, degree to which blood had congealed or solidified, etc... to assist in establishing time of death.

    I presume a doctor would have had to attend the scene to certify death. To not have been instructed to make observations which could have been useful to the investigation in the circumstances was negligent.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,774 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    I have just caught up on this thread having watched both docs and listened to the podcast.

    I'm no wiser as to whether Bailey is guilty or not. No motive or hard evidence is hard to get past. I do think he was capable of it, not surprised he was/is the primary suspect.

    The Garda investigation was botched (to put it mildly). I don't think that's down to a conspiracy or a cover up. I think the Gardaí in question were out of their depth, made bad decisions from day one and when they found a "good" suspect in Bailey they let themselves down by focusing entirely on him and resorting to underhand and increasingly desperate measures to try and pin it on him. I think they genuinely believed Bailey had committed the crime. Not that that is any excuse for the subsequent events and seeming lack of interest in any other suspect.

    I was talking to my dad about the documentaries and he reminded me of something I'd long forgotten. Dermot Dwyer is distantly related to my family. According to my dad, Dwyer says that Sophie had an injury to her mouth, lip torn, very similar to the injury inflicted on Jules by Bailey some months prior to the murder. An injury caused by putting a hand in the mouth and pulling at the gum. I'm not sure if this injury is documented anywhere in the public domain but it's interesting if true. I would have thought that would be a prime source for the perpetrators DNA to be found.

    Dad, in another bizarre 6 degrees of separation style twist of fate, also went to school with Marie Farrell's brother. Said he was a very odd character as were the family in general and he wouldn't trust too much of what Marie says.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well Daniel himself placed a particular emphasises on how strong minded and obstinate Sophie could be if she wished. I believe he had already met his next wife who he married in 1998, Melita Nicolik, a 28 year old woman whose father murdered her mother when she was 7. She grew up in care homes with her brother so I assume she was of very strong character. When Daniel died of a heart attack in 2003 aged 61, she went into film production herself and is quite famous in France.

    (You will need to hit the translate for this article, unless you speak French)




  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    You are correct, I had tarred everybody with the same brush.

    The French conviction was to appease the Du Plantier Family, and not the French people at large.

    Well pointed out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    There is another article on possible suspects:


    Interestingly two suspects committed suicide later on. Karl Heinz Wolney from Germany and the French fisherman from Marseille.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe



    This fact alone leads me to believe that money, contacts and popularity was involved to gain such a verdict.

    Also the Du Plantier family should also live with the fact that Sophie was adulterous and quite possibly to a certain degree promiscuous.

    Adultery is certainly not a crime but it produces ample cause for motive, once money, divorce in the public light and jealousy are involved.

    Sure, theoretically Bailey could have done it, but so could all the other suspects.

    Administering 40 to 50 blows to the head doesn't sound to me as a killing of accidental manslaughter in a heated argument.

    This kind of killing more sounds to me as the killer wanted either to be very sure that she was dead, and or had a very high level of hate or emotions to the crime.

    Regarding Bailey this motive and profile doesn't fit at all. It's more the jealous ex lover or a contract killer than a sometimes drunk free-lance writer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,774 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    Administering 40 to 50 blows to the head doesn't sound to me as a killing of accidental manslaughter in a heated argument.

    This kind of killing more sounds to me as the killer wanted either to be very sure that she was dead, and or had a very high level of hate or emotions to the crime.

    I've seen this confusion on this thread multiple times. I don't think it was ever said that she received 40 or 50 blows to the head. I'm fairly sure she had 40 or 50 wounds in total. That may include various scratches and cuts on her arms and hands etc. Maybe I have that wrong, but I'm sure I read it somewhere as 50 wounds.

    It still doesn't change the fact that this was a brutal killing, but it's an important distinction as it was more likely 10 or fewer blows to the head.

    40 or 50 blows to the head would have taken an extraordinary amount of strength and energy and as gruesome as it sounds, there would have been no need to deliver the final blow with the block after all that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Yeah it was it would seem a mutual consent breakup - but mutual consent doesnt mean a divorce isnt messy or hard to accept. Sophie would have been entitled to a portion of her husbands assets. Daniel Toscan Du Plantier would have been significantly poorer if he had divorced Sophie which would be hard to take. This is definately a motive to have her murdered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,398 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Often in these cases there is life insurance but havent heard it mentioned here.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Maybe they had an open marriage from the start. We don't know that.

    In the end, it was her husband who bought and paid for the house for her. He also rarely visited her or came along on the trips to Ireland.

    Apparently he wasn't the jealous type, but he would certainly have lost more during the divorce than her.

    Worse would have been any jealous previous casual lover of Sophie.

    Also, I wouldn't rule out drugs. Maybe Sophie had seen something or heard of something she shouldn't have? In the drug business killings are very brutal and ruthless. There is evidence of some drug operation in the area at that time as well.

    Then there is also the incompetence of the Guards. It's a little too incompetent to my liking. Evidence not gathered, or lost. They even lost the gate which was taken as evidence. How incompetent can that be. And even worse, suppose if the police were involved in the local drug business, that would at least explain that so much evidence was lost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,053 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    A court is the place to test and sort facts. Let them be put forward and prosecuted or defended. If the case is not resolved in some other way, then until there is a court case, the finger of suspicion points firmly to Ian Bailey. That's his out.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes but it can't go to court here because there's no bloody evidence. They can't even charge the man.

    I'm not getting into yet another boards debate about French vs Irish law tonight. Innocent until proven guilty is part of the constitution we live under, that protects from injustice and false imprisonment. The amount of irish folk who seem to think the french do it better on here astounds me. I hope none of ye find yourself wrongly accused of anything in France!



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    There has been talk that the "rumoured" suspect who was a garda died a long time ago, but do we know when exactly? I seen 2001 mentioned but do we know that to be true?

    https://www.tuamherald.ie/2013/01/23/ex-garda-gets-suspended-sentence-for-breaching-barring-order-in-clonberne/



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate


    Interesting from Ian Bailey twitter account.





  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    Who's Mary Jane?



  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭DivilsAdvocate




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,904 ✭✭✭Xander10




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    This is one theory I also have: Sophie has seen something and also heard something that "she shouldn't have" as they say in the crime/drug business and reported that to the Guards, not knowing that they were corrupt and also in it over their heads.

    It then had to be made sure, that she would never see or talk again. Given the fact that drugs can be highly profitable, it would at least a very strong motive as well. It would also explain why so much evidence, even a big gate, was lost by the Guards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat



    09/09/01 allegedly. Certainly seems like John is being cited as a credible murderer. It would certainly square why the Fiesta sighting's weren't followed up, and why the investigation seemed only to move in one direction and then evidence go missing etc.,



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    That's also an interesting article. Makes one wonder how the Guards came into the drugs and whether this procedure was supported by some higher police authority?




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  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Absolutely absurd suggestion...

    But would make so much sense of the information we have..

    Like most small communities back in the day, everybody knew the names of everybody else dogs.

    Evidence suggests there was a significant drug manufacturing operation going on there at the time. The local Gard(s) would have been well aware of it.. It's highly probably given the known levels of corruption, that some of the Gards were on the take - How high up the ladder that went is anybody's guess.

    Sophie reported the matter (or some serious intel) to the Bantry Gards. This caused serious repercussions around all involved in the grow house, including the bent coppers in Schull, probably leading to a major internal investigation that would possibly unmask a high ranking Gard?

    As previously debated, Sophie wasn't backwards at coming forwards, she wouldn't have been persuaded to drop the matter. If she had a grievance with the comings and goings of the drug operation, she would keep going until she got the attention she wanted. If Bantry didn't help her, she would have gone higher again.

    Now... Where there is drugs, there is money.. Plenty of it.

    Basically, Sophie who was no more than a blow in, that only graced West Cork occasionally, was about to kill the golden goose. The money printing business was going to be exposed, along with some potentially high ranking people within the community.

    Is money a motive for murder..?? Does a bear sh*t in the woods?

    What exactly did Sophie report to Bantry Gards? Did she request a home visit as her information was delicate? How much did she know? What had she seen?

    The more you hear about this case, the more it points towards a cover up. The missing pages, missing hard evidence, leads not followed, suspects ignored...

    I think Bailey has a fairly good idea what happened in West Cork all them years ago.. It's hard to get justice when the investigation was already rotten to the core.



This discussion has been closed.
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