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Too many people would have to keep it a secret...

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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Nope. That just states that they couldn't find enough evidence to show that Trump was in on the interference. Not that the interference didn't happen.


    There is no question that it happened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Have you seen examples of the trolling and how they linked it to Russian sources? Or are you basically placing your trust in what the CIA and leftist US politicians say, and because they say it therefore must be true?

    Do you also believe the same sources who outright denied, last year, any possibility that Covid19 was man-made?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Again, you're whinging and demanding evidence for something all while holding the opinion that all space flight is faked.

    There's no evidence for that and it's a very silly outlandish thing to believe. So why would you require evidence that Russia might want to interfere in elections?


    Notice how he's jumping from topic to topic all while dodging and avoiding every point put to him.

    He can't address anything. He can only spew out silly strawmen.


    Honestly dude, you'd have been better of if your first posts here weren't the fake space stuff.


    I do also like how you're demanding that people explain what they believe to you while you yourself have run away from that question repeatly.


    Just sheer dishonesty, ignorance and hypocrisy.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i think the phrase 'conspiracy theorist' is badly chosen. no one denies conspiracies happen, but the name allows those who believe in properly outlandish stuff to claim equivalence with people who believe in reasonable things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Exactly, and the problem here is that the forum is clogged with people who think they are the most qualified to draw this line and will kill any thread that doesn't fit their agenda



  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    You're getting confused. Whether or not that's deliberate and on purpose, only you may know.

    People asking questions, or getting others to outline their beliefs is not "killing any thread that doesn't fit their agenda". The fact that the theories are, for the most part, absolute rubbish that don't stand up to those questions or the refusal to outline their beliefs is what kills those threads.

    If you said bigfoot is real, but refused to explain why he's real to me, so everyone ignored you.....that's not because I asked a question. It's because you refused to answer it honestly. Do you see the difference?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Is this a new conspiracy theory about how you're being denied the opportunity to talk about conspiracy theories in a forum specifically setup to talk about conspiracy theories and where you have been fully permitted to talk about any conspiracy theories that you want, yet you are unable to adequately explain your theories because...reasons?


    Explain your beliefs if you want, we'd be delighted to hear them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Asking questions is not evidence that a conspiracy theory is rubbish. How many political or otherwise debates have you seen where the candidates ignore the moderator and ask each other questions for 2 hours and whoever can't answer the most questions loses? And yet this is how the "debunkers" in this forum thinks it works.

    If you think a conspiracy theory is rubbish then tell us your reason why. Asking questions and then claiming victory if the person doesn't answer is as ridiculous as it is lazy, as it is boring. But these are the tactics used regardless.

    This isn't an "I'm a conspracy theorist - Ask Me Anything" thread. It's a discussion forum - if you see something you don't agree with then give your reasons why.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    > This isn't an "I'm a conspracy theorist - Ask Me Anything" thread. It's a discussion forum - if you see something you don't agree with then give your reasons why.

    Your ideas about space programs all being fake are nonsense because we have satellite TV, GPS, can watch rockets being launched, can buy tickets to ride on a rocket and can see things like the ISS with basic camera equipment and see things like Iridium satellites with the naked eye.


    Your turn.



  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    Asking questions is not evidence that a conspiracy theory is rubbish, but refusing to answer even the most basic of questions certainly points in that direction. If you think a conspiracy theory is valid then tell us your reason why. It's not for me or anyone else to prove that its false, the burden of proof is on you as the theorist to prove that it holds water. How else is anyone supposed to test that without querying it?

    The running mantra of the ST crowd is "question everything". When that turns into "question everything, except me and my crazy beliefs" then you can safely dismiss them as a crazy loon.

    I mean, look at the great reset thread. We're how many years into that thread and nobody, out of the 15 or so proponents of the theory, have been able to even explain what the theory is, never mind defend it from basic scrutiny. It's all vague, spurious nonsense and the most likely explanation for that is "If i don't tell them what I think my theory is, then I won't have to listen to others tear it to shreds like the nonsense that it is".

    Your last line is patently fcuking absurd. "if you see something you don't agree with then give your reasons why". You won't answer any questions, because you can't, and that's my reasons why.

    Instead of asking that, then why not flip it around.....if you see something you do agree with then give your reasons why you think it's valid?



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  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    if you see something you don't agree with then give your reasons why.

    I disagree with your notions about space travel being fake because you will not even state publicly that you think it's fake, nor will you explain why you think it's fake, and you are obviously ignoring an absolute fcuking mountain of evidence that it's real.


    Your turn. Why do you think Space travel is fake?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    One of the many many reasons I believe that Markys theory that all space flight is faked, is that it is not possible to have a conspiracy this large without leaks.

    It would require millions of people to be involved.

    This has been pointed out several times and Marky has not once addressed this. This is because he can't address this because his theory is obviously false.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Why ignore the questions though?

    That makes it look like you can't answer them.

    If you feel the questions are unfair, explain why they are unfair.


    Ignoring questions because you can't answer them or because they highlight a gaping hole in your theory shuts down discussion. How is it possible to have a discussion with some one who does this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    And again markus, you're being completely and totally dishonest.

    You're claiming that "we ask endless questions" and we don't present arguments against the conspiracy theory.

    But this is a lie. We only have to look at the thread where you declared that all space travel was faked.

    One filmsy piece of evidence you presented was the idea that there was only one pictures of earth from space.

    You were provided reams of examples of what you said didn't exist.

    Likewise every single one of your points were addressed in detail and in very concise terms.


    What did you do?

    You ignored. You ran away. You whinged and cried. You insulted.

    You shut down that discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    How does the existence of any of these things prove spaceflight is real? On looking back for a link to give to @[Deleted User] I found that I've already wasted enough brain cells explaining things to you so we're done here.

    There is an entire thread explaining in minute detail everything I believe in and what I think is fake. I'm not going to spend hours of my life repeating myself, especially not to those despise conspiracies like you:

    Here's the thread, knock yourself out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    And again ignoring and running away.


    You demanded answers. People obliged you and answered you directly and concisely. When you are asked similar questions you dodge and avoid and lie.

    thanks for illustrating the fact that you're shutting down the discussion.

    Also lol. "How do thigs like rockets and satellites and a space station prove spaceflight is real?"



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Please explain how GPS works?

    Where do the rockets go that people see launched?

    How are people able to take photos of the ISS with basic cameras?

    How does satellite TV work?



  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    Did you really just ask how footage of rockets flying through space proves that spaceflight is possible?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,230 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Lol, lie after lie. You previously wrote you were more than happy to answer questions, yet you've done nothing but dodge and evade them since. You keep soapboxing, deflecting, playing the victim card and engaging in Olympic level whataboutery, anything but explain your conspiracy in any normal way or answer basic straightforward questions.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Watch now. I bet that even after bringing up stuff like the Iraq war and the 2016 election, Marky is going to suddenly declare all of these questions about his silly fake space conspiracy to be off topic. He will use this as an attempt to get on a high horse to explain why he's allowed to ignore all of this difficult questions.


    So a better on topic point would be to ask how many people would be involved in the conspiracy to fake spaceflight.

    He knows that such a thing would require millions of people to be involved. He also knows that he can't explain why anyone would actually do this.

    He knows that his own conspiracy believes are the perfect example of why his argument in the OP fails.

    He won't acknowledge any of that though.


    I also predict a dramatic and stroppy storming out of the thread soon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    That is entirely subjective.

    If you look at conspiracists in this very thread, the moon landing deniers say they are the 'reasonable' ones and call the flat earthers crazy. The antivax conspiracists say they are the 'reasonable' ones, and call the moon landing deniers crazy. The 9/11 conspiracists say they are the 'reasonable' ones, and call the antivaxxers crazy.


    The single one, reliable way to identify an antivax conspiracist is that they all say: "I'm not an antivaxxer, BUT.."


    The term 'conspiracy theorist' describes a person who believes in conspiracy theories, regardless of how 'realistic' the conspiracy theories are. So the term is actually well chosen - it is not supposed to imply the subjective 'truthfulness' of different conspiracy theories, or take sides in the infighting of the different factions of conspiracists.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer


    I mean, this post literally asks why a government would want to kill its own citizens under false pretences...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,230 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Context is important.

    People use sweeping generalisations about history to justify anything, e.g. "Governments have lied to people before" to validate a belief that the government is lying about the space program.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Yes, and do you have any response to the question in relation to any of the conspiracy theorys being discussed?

    Or how you'd keep such a plan to kill thousands in a fake terrorist attack, or millions in a fake pandemic, secret and not have any leaks from those involved or any legitimate 3rd party discovering the plan?



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer


    I mean, I've answered every conspiracy theory asked of me so far...



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  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer


    I agree, context is key.

    But people pretending that governments (particularly US) don't behave wantonly is a loada bollocks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob




  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    No you didn't. You quoted a person asking for the specific motive behind why they wanted to kill people.

    This is not denying that they would.

    That person also clarified this to you directly.


    So again, no one here holds the position you are describing.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer


    And I replied with plenty of motive.

    Governments willingly killing citizens is the weakests anti-conspiracy of them all.

    If you want me to run through every US government motive since WW2, I am happy to.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But again, you are pretending that the poster holds that the government wouldn't want to kill people if it benefits them.

    This isn't true.

    No one here holds this position.

    You are doing a lot of stretching and gymnastics to try and pretend they do. You should stop doing that.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer


    The poster said exactly that.

    If they want to clarify their position, I am happy to listen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    No, they didn't.

    Not sure why you're pretending that they did now. Very bizarre.

    It was explained to you that they were asking for a specific motivation and they were not denying that the government would be willing to kill people.


    No one holds the position you are claiming. Please stop pretending they do. It's very silly and making you look ridiculous.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer


    The fact that you can't refute my position makes you look silly.

    I've answered all questions of me so far.

    I'm happy to answer any further questions.

    You're the one that looks silly.

    Keep asking questions. I'm here.

    You can't cope with someone that isn't a Trump supporter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But your position is simply not true. No one here believe that conspiracies don't happen because the government would be unwilling to cause harm.

    The point everyone, including the person you seem determined to misrepresent, is making is that conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists rarely provide any rational motivation for the conspiracies.

    We all fully accept that the US government will lie, steal and murder. But none of us can imagine why the US government would want to fake all space flight as per the OPs conspiracy theory. Doing so just for the sake of lying stealing and murdering does not make for a rational motivation.

    Can you explain why the US government would want to fake the whole space program?

    If you can't and don't believe this conspiracy would it be then fair to accuse you of believing and saying that the US doesn't lie?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    No you didn't.


    You have lied 100% about what I was asking of you. Either that or you have zero understanding of the English language.

    We're trying to make the questions as simple for you as possible.


    Why would the US government want to fake a terrorist attack on their own people killing thousands? Why would they want to fake a global pandemic killing millions?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    So now that the singular example of a person you believe holds the position you claim has specifically told you they don't hold that position, could you please acknowledge that you claim was wrong?

    It would be a very Trump Supporterish thing to do to ignore this and not withdraw your false accusations.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer


    Every post-war US president should be before The Hague.

    Nothing to do with COVID-19.

    At no point have I suggested the US government, or any other government faked a global pandemic.

    COVID is a serious virus.

    I am pro-vaccine.

    I am pro-vaccine mandate.

    I am double vaccinated and will get the third jab.

    America literally killed 58,000 Americans in Vietnam. America literally killed 400 black men with their Tuskegee Study. America literally killed 4,500 American military personnel in Iraq under totally false pretences.

    I can carry on.

    If Boards wants to have one of their famous debates. I am happy to show my face live and have a debate with you or anyone else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Sorry, you've dodged all of my points. How very trumpian.

    Here they are again for your convenience. Please address them now.

    Can you explain why the US government would want to fake the whole space program?

    If you can't and don't believe this conspiracy would it be then fair to accuse you of believing and saying that the US doesn't lie?


    So now that the singular example of a person you believe holds the position you claim has specifically told you they don't hold that position, could you please acknowledge that you claim was wrong?


    No need to challenge people to a debate. Just answer those questions directly and concisely.

    Or alternatively, if you can't or are unwilling to answer these questions about your position that you invited, simply say so and explain why.


    Or you could keep dodging and crying and behaving like a trump supporter.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer


    Why are you asking me about the space programme when I've already stated I believe in the space programme?

    Are you confusing me with someone else?



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Nobody is questioning that those things happened. This forum is for the discussion of conspiracy theories, those topics probably belong in the politics forum.

    The topics being discussed here are the likes of faking terrorist attacks, faking space programs and faking pandemics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But I'm not asking you about the space program. I'm asking if you can imagine a hypothetical reason for why they would want to fake the program.

    If you can't, then I'm asking if it would be then logical and fair for people to accuse you of denying that the US government is capable and willing to lie.


    It's a very simple question I've asked you 3 times now.

    You said that you would answer any questions but to you, yet you keep dodging this one and the others I've asked you.

    It's very much like what Trumpists do.


    And again, for your convienence here is the other question you are dodging:

    So now that the singular example of a person you believe holds the position you claim has specifically told you they don't hold that position, could you please acknowledge that you claim was wrong?

    Please answer them directly now.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    6 people in government knew about MKultra while it was running..



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    And how many people would need to be involved in a plan to fake a terrorist attack which killed thousands? Or fake the space program? Or fake a global pandemic?


    All without getting noticed by anyone else on the planet?

    This is not the same as the military testing LSD on psychiatric patients which nobody outside was aware of at the time or had any reason to question.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer


    Take every other post/comment out of all context in this thread.

    Ask me questions.

    What clarification do you need?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    I did ask you questions. You keep ignoring them.

    Can you explain why the US government would want to fake the whole space program?

    If you can't and don't believe this conspiracy would it be then fair to accuse you of believing and saying that the US doesn't lie?


    So now that the singular example of a person you believe holds the position you claim has specifically told you they don't hold that position, could you please acknowledge that you claim was wrong?

    You keep avoiding them. I cannot make them clearer. If you ignore them again I will take it that you are doing so because you don't want to answer them honestly and directly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Also, again, another example of a conspiracy theory that was revealed by the government itself and covered by the mainstream media.

    If they can't keep a conspiracy of 6 people under wraps, how could they do it with ones that involve thousands or millions?



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Hadlee Helpful Computer


    If anyone can translate the above, I'm happy to answer.

    If you're drunk/high, I hope you've have an enjoyable night.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    as others have pointed out, there's something quite glaringly different - both qualitatively and quantitatively - between programs which are designed to operate in secret by their very nature, and ones supposedly operating quite deliberately in the glare of the media and the public eye.

    take space travel - for example, if the russians had faked gargarin's first space flight, why would the americans have kept schtum about it?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    The US government get too much credit in my opinion. They have a track record of a total lack of forward thinking and disastrous policy decisions. I don't believe they are morally or ethically above faking 9/11, because we know from Operation Northwoods that they considered similar things before. But, I don't know how anybody believes they are capable of pulling it off. The complexity of faking 9/11 and keeping it quiet is astronomical compared to many far simpler tasks that they regularly make an absolute balls off. An operation like the Bay of Pigs is far less complicated than 9/11 would be. They could pull off faking 9/11?, but couldn't manage to plant an auld WMD under Saddams bed? They couldn't even make Monica's dress disappear?

    Then there's things that I'm sure they would love to cover up with are out in open now, like MK Ultra, The Guatemala Syphilis Experiments, The Gulf Of Tonkin false flag, The contaminated polio vaccines, The Tuskegee Syphillis study. If the were truly capable of covering up 9/11, then surely these would never have seen the light of day either.

    Certain aspects of the space program are clearly faked, like some videos and photos, which tarnishes everything and leads to conspiracy theories, but it is, or at least was verifiable, that man made objects were on the moon. I've not seen any explanation for why Russia, who also spent billions on the space race would not call BS on the US if it was faked, they had the technology to prove it was faked, and more motivation that anybody to prove it was faked, yet never even suggested it?



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