What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Cordell · 10-09-2021 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871897#Comment_117871897

Roma gypsies are to Romanians what Irish travelers are to the Irish.

10-09-2021 1:00pm

In 2006 10% of the population were born abroad.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871958#Comment_117871958

Going by your numbers, it's still 10%.

In reality, it's about 13%.

A 3% increase in 15 years.

Quick, man the beaches.

Wibbs · 10-09-2021 1:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871115#Comment_117871115

I don't need to explain why it's a good idea. It just is.

Any idea, good or bad for that matter, is or should be pretty easy to explain. That's what an idea is. If it can't be explained it's not much of an idea. Your position seems to be based on a faith like premise, with a side order of soem odd nihilistic approach. It doesn't matter. It just is. If humanity had taken that tack we'd have never left the caves. If we'd even found them in the first place.

10-09-2021 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871958#Comment_117871958

There is no reason for pro posters to argue anything.

it is what it is, I for one have no issue with foreign people who wish to come to Ireland. So, why would I need an argument for?

10-09-2021 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117872211#Comment_117872211

No, it just means that I am perfectly happy with many different nationalities living in Ireland.

10-09-2021 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117872073#Comment_117872073

Ahh yes, because it's better to dismiss other concerns as being unreasonable. How about you answer the question I put to Bubblypop then?

Also, they were Bubblypops numbers. Here's the numbers from the cso instead:

"In April 2016, persons born abroad accounted for 17.3 per cent of the population, up from 17 per cent in 2011."

with an average non-Irish population of 14.9 per cent for all towns over 1,500 in 2016.

Tell me how · 10-09-2021 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870943#Comment_117870943

The figures you mention for Tanzania you view as inconsequential, and as such 3 times that amount in Ireland is hardly cause for concern is it? And if it is, what is that concern for you? You must be glad to see people of African heritage start to appear representing Ireland in things like football and athletics, surely going to help with the integration of their communities which you seem to think is not happening.

As for the Chinese in Africa. A link from a conservative, military type publication is hardly evidence that integration is not possible. Would you think it better for China to not invest in Africa but to seek to commandeer it's resources at some point which traditionally has been the practice between tribes/countries working in complete isolation and with no path of communication?

With respect to trying to classify motivation to move as solely being driven by economic migration. Nice try, It is a factor, of course it is, but it is not the only one. Persecution because of religion, sexual orientation, gender, and as an outcome of conflict in their home country are also reasons migrants seek to move and find security and prospects elsewhere. Or outside of such reasons, is the desire for the best opportunity you can get for yourself and your family not something that everyone seeks out?

Your comments about social welfare seem to be that that is your concern, is that it? You are concerned with the level of welfare payouts being made to immigrants? Because it should be possible to consider multiculturalism outside of this and it seems to me that that is the concept you have an issue with but are using the welfare payments as your stick to beat it with. Is that it? You're looking at this from a socially liberal but fiscally conservative viewpoint?

Wibbs · 10-09-2021 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117872228#Comment_117872228

As you would apparently be perfectly happy if there weren't. You have a non position. Well I suppose having nothing of sunstance to defend, makes it so much easier to do so. Makes for a non debate mind you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117872610#Comment_117872610

The figures you mention for Tanzania you view as inconsequential, and as such 3 times that amount in Ireland is hardly cause for concern is it? And if it is, what is that concern for you?

By percentage it's significantly more than three times when comparing the countries. There are eleven times the number of people living in Tanzania compared to Ireland.

You must be glad to see people of African heritage start to appear representing Ireland in things like football and athletics, surely going to help with the integration of their communities which you seem to think is not happening.

Ah yes, this old saw. There are also people of African heritage representing Britain, France, Italy, Germany, never mind the US in sport and have done for generations and apparently they're all bastions of race relations and integration. Oh wait, they're not. Remember the BLM rallies around the multicultural west? They weren't a day out for the craic. Never mind the abuse many such Black players get from their own fans, never mind their opponents. And as I've asked many times before to little end; please point out any multicultural nation in Europe where African folks are not likely to cluster near the bottom in socio economic terms. Clearly a few sports stars does not make for integration. That's quite simply wishful thinking. But there's a lot of that going around.

As for the Chinese in Africa. A link from a conservative, military type publication is hardly evidence that integration is not possible. Would you think it better for China to not invest in Africa but to seek to commandeer it's resources at some point which traditionally has been the practice between tribes/countries working in complete isolation and with no path of communication?

Well read Forbes or the FT if you like. The Chinese presence tends to be colonisation by a different road as costs in China go north and their demographic time bomb is looming they're looking for cheap labour. That usually goes well... Especially when local authorities are not exactly high on the fighting corruption front.

With respect to trying to classify motivation to move as solely being driven by economic migration. Nice try, It is a factor, of course it is, but it is not the only one.

Yes it's truly remarkable that in pre celtic tiger Ireland inward migration was a trickle of what it became. Never mind that these same "persecuted" have to go through a few safe countries to get here. Never mind that if the current legislation and filtering process was in play in the late 90's and early 00's the vast majority of those who came here from such unsafe countries would have been rejected as economic migrants.

Your comments about social welfare seem to be that that is your concern, is that it? You are concerned with the level of welfare payouts being made to immigrants? Because it should be possible to consider multiculturalism outside of this and it seems to me that that is the concept you have an issue with but are using the welfare payments as your stick to beat it with. Is that it? You're looking at this from a socially liberal but fiscally conservative viewpoint?

Nope. That's but one of the obvious symptoms. Even so it's a pretty stark one and one that can't be taken in isolation when we consider this multiculturalist project. It's part and parcel of it. My concern is the importation of an underclass on top of our existing one. One that brings more issues on top of our existing ones and does so for generations and has way more impact on many migrant demographics than local. How goes the integration of "our own" minority Travellers? Shining success that one. We will have to pay that piper down the line, just like every other European nation that has run this experiment. And for what, smug exoticism and post war paranoia about nationalism?

Tell me how · 10-09-2021 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117873297#Comment_117873297

If you are waiting for a society in which there are no areas that can be highlighted for needing improvement, no people that don't feel that things could be better, and no cases that can be pointed to with the suggestion that the root cause for what ever the issue, is division because of race, in order to determine that that society is a success then I can tell you now that you are likely to die without seeing it. Does that mean that every country is a failure? By your metrics it would seem so?

As for lamenting the underclass in Ireland being forgotten or alienated with the reference to travellers, I suspect many of those on the same side of the discussion as you here are shifting nervously in their seats reading that given how travellers are generally referred to on this site. And the same goes for highlighting the abuse that is doled out to some of these players, again, going on the non-scientific method of Boards posters views on these topics, many of those arguing against multiculturalism, also argue against footballers (or other sports people) calling for an end to racism being expressed or carried out towards them. I'm not suggesting you fall in to this category, but if we can generalise the experience of entire groups across several decades in several countries I don't think it is unacceptable to generalise in this respect also.

And whenever there is a thread about which the topic is the advocation (or the argument of advocating for) opportunities which benefit women or other groups of a particular identify or background the general theme around it is 'How dare they'. Indeed, some even refer to them as possessing or adhering to a permanent credo of victimhood. But none of this is new, we see it time and again from some, particularly uber nationalists/conservatists who one day argue that we have enough to be taking care of within our own native population and the next arguing that those same people shouldn't get supports.

10-09-2021 6:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117873297#Comment_117873297

Not a non position at all.

I accept and am happy to see foreign people coming to live and work in Ireland. There is no need for anyone who is happy with multiculturalism to argue the case for.

Wibbs · 10-09-2021 6:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117873426#Comment_117873426

If you are waiting for a society in which there are no areas that can be highlighted for needing improvement, no people that don't feel that things could be better, and no cases that can be pointed to with the suggestion that the root cause for what ever the issue, is division because of race, in order to determine that that society is a success then I can tell you now that you are likely to die without seeing it. Does that mean that every country is a failure? By your metrics it would seem so?

All societies have problems that need solving. That is true. My point is why deliberately import more problems on top because of some misplaced notion that multiculturalism when it involves movements of people is a good thing? These seem to be pretty intractable problems too. Mistrust of the different, a feeling of a Them and Us, all the way up to overt racism on all sides isn't going away any time soon. It's been a feature of human nature since we came out of the egg. There isn't a society of any size in history where this hasn't been in play. Not a one. Hell, the majority of non colonial nations on Earth tend towards homogenity of a majority. Where they don't, for example in Africa where White boy drew borders for the craic it's led to serious strife. In colonial nations like the European New Wolrd, the natives got buggered right away, a hierarchy of the first among "equals" got established and everyone else who didn't fit that mould tended to get the pooey end of the stick and the more different from the first, the pooier the end of the stick they got. Yet magically Ireland will turn out differently?

As for lamenting the underclass in Ireland being forgotten or alienated with the reference to travellers, I suspect many of those on the same side of the discussion as you here are shifting nervously in their seats reading that given how travellers are generally referred to on this site.

Indeed, it's a good example of the above them v us and on both sides and that particular example has gotten worse in my lifetime, even with all the social changes in Ireland and support groups and ethnic status etc. Never mind that they're the exact same "race", same religion where present as the majority. Pretty subtle cultural differences going on and yet here we are.

And whenever there is a thread about which the topic is the advocation (or the argument of advocating for) opportunities which benefit women or other groups of a particular identify or background the general theme around it is 'How dare they'. Indeed, some even refer to them as possessing or adhering to a permanent credo of victimhood.

That's a totally different conversation, as usual. But let's run with it. Again a good example of the issues around identity politics and on all sides. And that stuff, both on the victimhood olympics side and the victimisers olympics side has grown. Again, why import more problems? Nobody seems to be able to answer this, beyond vague notions of some nebulous "moral duty" angle and our old friend exoticism, or in some cases nothing to see here, carry on.

Wibbs · 10-09-2021 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117873660#Comment_117873660

Why does X make you happy? I'm happy with X and that's that. But why? Can you explain your reasoning? Nope, I'm happy with it and that's that. It's a non issue for me.

Even the opposite holds true it seems

You. Earlier.

I don't need to explain why it's a good idea. It just is. I see no need to make any kind argument for immigration. Likewise, if there was no immigration into this country, I wouldn't care either, I wouldn't be making arguments for.

Yours is the very definition of a non position. Nothing to see here, nothing to defend. Carry on.

Sand · 10-09-2021 9:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871958#Comment_117871958

There is no argument for mass migration that can be openly voiced. Which is why the arguments they do voice are so weak. I and others have made the point repeatedly that mass migration is bad for the indigenous people. In the case of European countries, mass migration being bad for the indigenous people is exactly why it is supported.

Sand · 10-09-2021 10:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117869817#Comment_117869817

It's very clear what voters want. Increasingly neoliberal/mainstream politicians - both right and (as in Denmark) left - know they need to be seen to be against mass migration to be elected. Because people want an end to mass migration which is clearly against their own interests and those of their children.

But the entire political system in so many countries seems to be setup to deny voters that same policy. Once they get elected, the neoliberals revert to type and its open borders again. Until the next election cycle when they talk tough for a few weeks. We call this democracy.

11-09-2021 12:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117874449#Comment_117874449

The interesting thing is that mass immigration is actually bad for most of the migrants too. In the short term, there is the competition for employment, housing, and State supports if required. In the long run, they face the same problems the natives do, except in many ways, it's worse because they don't have a generational wealth built up to support them.... but they'll still have to problems with declining services unable to deal with the increased population, and difficulties supporting their families as living costs continue to increase. Then, throw in the biases, racism, and tribalism that they themselves bring with them, since there is a good chance that they will be in direct competition for resources with their adversaries from their own countries, either in the country itself, or competing for attention from the various NGOs, minority support groups, etc.

The thing I find so interesting about the advocates of miss immigration is that they fail to recognise that there is a limit on resources, and immigration en mass, will mean far more people needing supports than the skilled immigration who can support themselves... because there never is mass immigration of skilled workers.. It just doesn't happen (as they're in demand throughout Europe or the world).

Tell me how · 11-09-2021 2:15am

All societies have problems that need solving. That is true. My point is why deliberately import more problems on top because of some misplaced notion that multiculturalism when it involves movements of people is a good thing? These seem to be pretty intractable problems too. Mistrust of the different, a feeling of a Them and Us, all the way up to overt racism on all sides isn't going away any time soon. It's been a feature of human nature since we came out of the egg. There isn't a society of any size in history where this hasn't been in play. Not a one. Hell, the majority of non colonial nations on Earth tend towards homogenity of a majority. Where they don't, for example in Africa where White boy drew borders for the craic it's led to serious strife. In colonial nations like the European New Wolrd, the natives got buggered right away, a hierarchy of the first among "equals" got established and everyone else who didn't fit that mould tended to get the pooey end of the stick and the more different from the first, the pooier the end of the stick they got. Yet magically Ireland will turn out differently?

Yes, historically there was mistrust and fear which changed to integration and co-operation when people realised how they have much more in common than what separates them. If you think what has gone on in Ireland over the last 40 years is comparable to what happened during the colonial exploration throughout the world largely within the 19th century and earlier I don't know what to tell you. It's not comparing like with like.

Indeed, it's a good example of the above them v us and on both sides and that particular example has gotten worse in my lifetime, even with all the social changes in Ireland and support groups and ethnic status etc. Never mind that they're the exact same "race", same religion where present as the majority. Pretty subtle cultural differences going on and yet here we are.

Why do you think problems have gotten worse within your lifetime? Both of the communities involved have lived in the same country throughout the same period and for many decades before so what do you think changed? And do you see a solution to this? Because if so, I'd imagine its one of two things, the fostering of tolerance and integration, or the reduction in size or removal of one side. Because it sounds like you are saying this multiculturalism has worked in Ireland in the past, but hasn't recently and isn't going to in future.

That's a totally different conversation, as usual. But let's run with it. Again a good example of the issues around identity politics and on all sides. And that stuff, both on the victimhood olympics side and the victimisers olympics side has grown. Again, why import more problems? Nobody seems to be able to answer this, beyond vague notions of some nebulous "moral duty" angle and our old friend exoticism, or in some cases nothing to see here, carry on.

It seems you get frustrated by topics being discussed which are directly related to points you have made and refer to it as being a different conversation. You yourself referred to existing issues and underclass and when I referred to how that is treated, you seem annoyed by that, as usual (as I think the phrase of the day seems to be). That aside, the point still stands, groups of the 'underclass' are dismissed as participating in victimiser olympics when they have the audacity to ask for support or aid by a group who then compound their disinterest by telling them it's better we don't mix, for your own good.

Tell me how · 11-09-2021 2:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117875113#Comment_117875113

The thing I find so interesting about the advocates of miss immigration is that they fail to recognise that there is a limit on resources

This made me laugh, a venn diagram of groups of people who think climate change because of the way natural resources are used isn't a problem and those who think immigration is an issue would probably overlap by 90% or greater. But concern for resources is an argument against immigration, resources that the same people would also like to see cut for native people. It's kinda using the 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' logic.

You answer the question on why there is never mass immigration of skilled workers yourself, it's because of supply and demand. Dr Michiu Kaku said that Americas secret weapon is the H-1B visa. It's use has shown just how willing people are to accept cultural differences when there is a tangible benefit they can relate to. Of course the Conservative party in the UK made no bones about what they constitute as important with the introduction of their new visa requirements for people to move to the UK would work. Given what, the last 12 months have shown us with the respect we attribute to specific roles and skills needs to be considered with respect to just what society needs you would think that they would look at what is happening there right now and the correlation between food supplies and workers who worked in those supply lines and realise that low education does not automatically mean low value.

Looking forward to this energy about resources being brought to Boards the next time Greta has the nerve to open her mouth.

11-09-2021 7:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117873720#Comment_117873720

Oh I have my reasons as to why I'm happy to see other cultures and peoples living in ireland. Of course, I can explain what I feel are the postives.

But whenever a poster does list their positives, you dismiss them all entirely, as if their reasons don't satisfy you. Why you believe you should have the say on what the positives are, I don't know!

11-09-2021 9:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117875318#Comment_117875318

This made me laugh, a venn diagram of groups of people who think climate change because of the way natural resources are used isn't a problem and those who think immigration is an issue would probably overlap by 90% or greater. But concern for resources is an argument against immigration, resources that the same people would also like to see cut for native people. It's kinda using the 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' logic.

@Tell me how what makes me laugh is how you consistently seek to argue smaller points rather than tackle the main arguments of most posts. Here's a hint. The above wasn't an argument against immigration. I'm actually in favor of immigration, since I'm an expat spending most of my time in other countries. The difference is that mass immigration typically caters towards those with low or no skills relevant to the nation they're moving to... ie. people from a 3rd world nation coming to a 1st world nation. But then, you stopped trying to argue the employment problems with immigration, so I'm not terribly surprised you chose to move on to this.

You answer the question on why there is never mass immigration of skilled workers yourself, it's because of supply and demand. Dr Michiu Kaku said that Americas secret weapon is the H-1B visa. It's use has shown just how willing people are to accept cultural differences when there is a tangible benefit they can relate to.

The H-1B visa is for highly skilled workers on temporary visa, and is rigorously checked to ensure that individuals are eligible, and suitable. This is the US... they do care about some cultures, and nationalities, so it's hardly a case of mass immigration under that visa type. But sure, cultural differences are "accepted" or more likely ignored in favor of the tangible benefits of skilled labor. But then, I suspect it will be a different story in the US when/if it comes to converting the visa.

Of course the Conservative party in the UK made no bones about what they constitute as important with the introduction of their new visa requirements for people to move to the UK would work. Given what, the last 12 months have shown us with the respect we attribute to specific roles and skills needs to be considered with respect to just what society needs you would think that they would look at what is happening there right now and the correlation between food supplies and workers who worked in those supply lines and realise that low education does not automatically mean low value.

Low education does not automatically mean low value? Of course it doesn't. However, the UK retains many industries aimed at employing the low skilled because the UK is still very much a class based system, and they've retained a focus on the "working class" that is absent, or significantly diminished in other nations (Usually the "bigger" nations retained their working class focus, such as Germany or France). In any case, low skilled means a focus on physical work, such as manufacturing, agriculture, and the service industry, all of which the UK has in abundance. In contrast, Ireland as a smaller nation, has focused heavily on technology, and with a much smaller population, doesn't have the service industry to match... nor does it need to provide employment for a large working class group.

Look at China... they've built an economy on the backs of low skilled workers. Admittedly it's starting to fall apart now, since invariably "costs of living" increase quicker than wages, due to the need to keep that low cost economy competitive (low salaries, low benefits, etc), and other considerations causing inflation, but they're a testament to the idea that low killed workers can be highly valuable. For a time. The problem is that most modern and wealthy economies are forced to move away from such economies because of the needs of the population, and the nature of competition between the bigger nations. Which means, low skilled workers have a shelf-life in terms of economic development, and will invariably lose out to everyone else, usually becoming an underclass that needs State supports, or ending up in poverty conditions.

11-09-2021 9:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117875461#Comment_117875461

Why you believe you should have the say on what the positives are, I don't know!

Because it's a discussion board, and CA is usually for people who want to argue their positions? It's a bit strange to be on CA and have no position, or unwilling to defend your position, while contributing to a thread.

11-09-2021 9:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117875605#Comment_117875605

Oh like I said, I have my beliefs, but I don't see why Wibbs, in particular, is the judge as to whether someone's reasons are valid or not.

any positives outlined by posters are rubbished and dismissed.

Mad_maxx · 11-09-2021 12:13pm

The kind of folks who espouse a view of " I'm happy to see any number of people arrive and it just is the correct position "

They are no different to religious people who see no need to explain " water into wine "

It's an article of faith, progressives like Bubbly are just a new kind of religious devotee.

vriesmays · 11-09-2021 12:33pm

The Poles are putting barb wire at their borders and the Irish MPs complain.

11-09-2021 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117876063#Comment_117876063

Most definitely not! No faith required to be happy with a situation.

As I said, I'm happy for people to immigrate to this country, live and work here and contribute to society.

Nothing to do with believing stories. I'm not sure where you get the idea I'm a 'progressive ' though, pretty sure I've never been called that, however I don't know So much about their philosophy.

Cordell · 11-09-2021 12:50pm

Yes, some EU MP complain when an EU country attempts to secure the EU border, this is where we are now.

11-09-2021 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117875621#Comment_117875621

The issue is that the positives, limited as they are, don't outweigh the negatives... and that is the argument in this thread.

As for Wibbs, dunno if he's the judge, but he is, by far, (IMHO) the best poster on the thread. If it helps any, I've opposed him on other issues, and he's torn me to shreds. Live, learn and adapt.

One eyed Jack · 11-09-2021 3:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117876063#Comment_117876063

I just think it’s unreasonable to conflate multiculturalism with immigration policies as though they are one and the same. Multiculturalism I could take it or leave it, objectively there are neither positives or negatives to it, whereas subjectively, we could argue the positives or negatives ad infinitum.

I think we can all agree however that terrible immigration policies are a bad thing for any society, and there are no advantages in simply permitting immigrants to enter a country and expect that they won’t need support to contribute to society. That’s any Governments responsibility which from looking at Ireland and indeed other countries, I think it’s not unreasonable to say they have failed miserably in addressing.

The policy being proposed in the UK for example following Brexit has employers who depend upon cheap labour who were always in favour of immigration, up in arms! I’d hardly suggest that was an idea which could be attributed to progressive politics?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51550421

12-09-2021 1:06am

“A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.”

Nobody is considering the future generations who will have to deal with what is a very rapid change in demographics on say a 50 year timescale, nevermind a 100 year timescale.

"If all migration were to immediately and permanently stop – a “zero migra-

tion” scenario – the Muslim population of Europe still would be expected to rise from

the current level of 4.9% to 7.4% by the year 2050 because Muslims are younger (by

13 years, on average) and have higher fertility (one child more per woman, on average)

than other Europeans. A second, “medium” migration scenario assumes all refugee

flows stopped as of mid-2016 but that recent levels of “regular” migration to Europe

will continue. Under these conditions, Muslims could reach 11.2% of Europe’s popula-

tion in 2050. Finally, a “high” migration scenario projects the record flow of refugees

into Europe between 2014 and 2016 to continue indefinitely into the future with the

same religious composition (i.e., mostly made up of Muslims) in addition to the typi-

cal annual flow of regular migrants. In this scenario, Muslims could make up 14% of

Europe’s population by 2050"

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://brill.com/downloadpdf/journals/jrd/6/1/article-p87_87.xml&ved=2ahUKEwiMo9n8jvjyAhVN73MBHbQiBD8QFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3MxY6Ov7jIS0SoAKNYuxiy

12-09-2021 10:19am

This is anecdotal obviously but I work with plenty of immigrants in the IT sector and they are often more vocal and critical of the high immigration levels in Ireland than locals. They feel more able to publicly state their views.

I think we are going to see big changes over the next 20 years, if globalization is in retreat like I think it might well be, again personal opinion so don't get your knickers in a twist 🙂

Tell me how · 12-09-2021 3:56pm

Nice to see prominent anti-immigration personalities in the UK this morning engaging in their usual two-faced hypocrisy in being adamant that the Candadian born, to Romanian and Chinese patents Emma Raducanu is British, full stop.

Maybe that is the line in the sand, win a tennis major and we'll cheer for you, anything else and we'll call for people like you to be kept out of the country. The Daily Express literally did this on their front page, probably without a hint of awareness of what they were doing.

Let's hope that as a young, currently successful female tennis star she never has an off day and needs to consider her mental health or else, the knives will be out once again.

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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