Working From Home Megathread

astrofool · 13-09-2021 4:54pm

I'm wondering what the expected outcome here will be, if someone is demanding to WFH are they going to try and demand that their employer provide adequate workspace in their home as well, or is it a mutually exclusive request?

If the employer has an office anyway, won't the default response be "OK, come into the office then where we already have ergonomic equipment and desks for you".

Those who WFH pre-pandemic would often have their own office setup and dual connectivity in case of an outage.

Quin_Dub · 13-09-2021 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117885801#Comment_117885801

Realistically there has to be give and take.

If you don't have the ability to work from home because of a lack of an ability to make suitable space for yourself for whatever reason , then you don't get to work from home.

If you have the physical space , then the employer should be making some accommodation towards the setup of that home office - A one off contribution towards kitting the space out and/or an ongoing stipend towards heat/light/broadband costs.

Now - If an employer says "Hey we're completely closing the office you used to go to and consolidating the space at our other site in a different location much further away" , that's a different story , but if your former office remains available then anything more than a contribution as described above is an unreasonable expectation.

astrofool · 13-09-2021 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117885873#Comment_117885873

Will the grey areas remain (i.e. those that WFH occasionally before but from a couch or kitchen table) or do they need to be formalised, would people be happy with someone from ergonomics going into their house and rearranging things (and if it fails, they have to go back to the office). Are people happy not to be paid if their broadband fails or has a bad/slow signal?

Playing devil's advocate, if the cost of commute was a lot more than it costs to outfit a WFH and pay for light/heart should the employer contribute at all, or would it be down to the employee to get themselves up to code so they can WFH.

There will need to be fairness on both sides but I can see a lot of people doing themselves out of a good situation by going after what they think they should be entitled to.

Frank Bullitt · 13-09-2021 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117885641#Comment_117885641

If an employee is working at home, and will be for the foreseeable, then they are able to bring that up to the employer to get a proper desk set-up and working space. I never had one ergonomic check in an office I have been in...ever. And i have worked in multiple offices in Ireland and across North America.

jakiah · 13-09-2021 6:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886002#Comment_117886002

Ive been 'work from where-ever' for years, "ergonomic checks" have literally never come up, within the office, at home, or on a customers site. The ability to sit down safely is kind of assumed knowledge. I really dont think WFH is designed for these needy jobsworth menchildren. They seem to think work is a continuation of school where its the teachers responsibility to hold their hands throughout the day.

13-09-2021 6:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886002#Comment_117886002

Our company is bringing in the ergonomic work from home check soon. We have been supplied with docks, two screens, mice and headset but employer is insistent that we get our own desks and chairs which I kind of agree with due to the hassle of dismantling them or moving them when an employee finishes with the company.

I really don't mind as can buy something myself I'm happy with and know I will have it for the next 45 years.

AndrewJRenko · 13-09-2021 8:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886002#Comment_117886002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886233#Comment_117886233

Dunno what kind of dodgy organisations you've been working for, folks, but if your employer hasn't been complying their explicit legal obligation to carry out a risk assessment of your workstation (screen/desk/chair), you've been choosing the wrong employer. Who knows what other safety short cuts they've been taking.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/workplace_health/manual_handling_display_screen_equipment/faqs/display_screen_equipment_faqs/display_screen_equipment1.html

"What do I need to do to comply with the Display Screen Equipment Regulation 2007?

As an employer there are a number of duties set down it this regulation, the key requirements are to:

Carry out an analysis or risk assessment of employee workstations"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117885964#Comment_117885964

What has commuting costs got to do with it? Your employer never covered your commuting costs before. They didn't give you a raise when bus fares went up, or fuel prices went up. Why would your employer get the benefit if your reduced commuting costs now?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117885671#Comment_117885671

Are there any other of my employer's costs that you'd like me to cover now, for the privilege of giving over 4 or 5 square metres of my house to them? Should I be paying for my own laptop and my own software now, just to make it a bit easier for my employer, as they reap considerable savings on property costs?

astrofool · 13-09-2021 9:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886777#Comment_117886777

It may be better to tone down the rhetoric a bit, there's no gain from being combative, your employer never covered heating/lighting costs before, I'd imagine if they were given the option of "truly" covering the cost of 4-5sqm in a home, the answer will be to come back to the office, so the question is what the balance is, coming at it from "I'm entitled to.." will end up with the status quo.

Has your employer ran an ergo check for your WFH time pre-pandemic? Did you WFH pre-pandemic? What form did it take and what did they provide to you for it? (these are genuine questions as it will be interesting to see what companies are doing and have done, mine has provided chairs, desks, monitors, ergo equipment and running ergo checks for anyone that wants one done, this will likely become enforced post pandemic for people WFH most of the time).

(my first reaction to your post was "whoa, the rod up that guys butt must have a rod up it's butt", then I thought I wouldn't mention it, then I have anyway to try and provide some reflection here as undoubtedly others have thought the same as me, maybe this sentence will make enflame things more or may bring some empathy to the thread)

AndrewJRenko · 13-09-2021 9:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887070#Comment_117887070

That's not true, the employer absolutely covered lighting and heating costs before, by providing an office with lighting and heating. Now employees are faced with additional out-of-pocket expenses to cover lighting, heating, quality broadband, while the employer snaffs the savings that come with reduced office space requirements.

My current employer didn't have official WFH before the pandemic, though some people had arrangements with their line manager for 1 or 2 days a week. A previous multinational employer was doing home ergonomic checks for WFH about 20 years ago, so this isn't a new idea. They insisted you had a dedicated chair and desk, not a kitchen table scenario. I don't recall if there was any payment for furniture etc.

Mrs OBumble · 13-09-2021 9:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886002#Comment_117886002

Sorry, but that's the point I call BS.

Employers have a very clear legal liability to provide a safe workplace. They know this, and they act accordingly. There's no way you have never had an assessment done.

You also claim to be unaware that broadband is still shyte in certain parts of the country. Or that some people live in really, really small places where no additional furniture is possible. Yeah, right.

astrofool · 13-09-2021 10:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887094#Comment_117887094

Unless the office closes, they're still paying the same heating and lighting costs whether you're there or not, it also puts them in the situation of paying those who work from home more than the people who are in the office.

AndrewJRenko · 13-09-2021 11:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887206#Comment_117887206

Paying out-of-pocket expenses for those who incur out-of-pocket expenses isn't 'paying people more'. It is just covering their expenses, whether that is travel or equipment or heat or light or broadband. Same as any payment of expenses.

Do you really think employers are going to continue to pay for the same office space if it is going to be 80% empty?

13-09-2021 11:17pm

I.T. related. Hearing of more and more people who are getting jobs with Dublin based multi-nationals while WFH throughout the country.

Win-Win for everyone, expands employee pool for employer, expands job opportunities for employees who don't want to move to Dublin. Stops people moving to Dublin, hopefully helping with the housing market there for locals.

It's a real positive outcome of the pandemic.

AndrewJRenko · 13-09-2021 11:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117885801#Comment_117885801

The employer may well try to bluff their way out of sharing any of the cost savings, especially if they know well that most employees have awful commutes.

But the potential savings to the employer are very significant, so bluffing can be a dangerous game.

astrofool · 13-09-2021 11:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887524#Comment_117887524

Do you really think 80% of people will WFH in the future? We're seeing a number of about 20%.

13-09-2021 11:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887738#Comment_117887738

probably c. 80% hybrid working, yes. There won’t be many companies any more that’ll force their staff in on Fridays, for example, and there’ll be loads on a 2 / 3 split

ixoy · 14-09-2021 12:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887747#Comment_117887747

I'd like to think that's the case but I'd be surprised if it pans out here, unless by companies you only mean the larger multinationals. And hybrid working itself could mean 1 day WFH and 4 in the office. Even Google were looking at a 3/2 split in favour of home/office. I'll be a bit more on the pessimistic outcome side myself.

astrofool · 14-09-2021 1:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887630#Comment_117887630

I can't really see an allowance system being a very common thing for WFH and house bills (remembering that some MNC do cover commute costs or subsidise it significantly) if a company did close the office then I'd expect their wage structure to reflect the cost savings instead (and the companies with an office using it as a selling point, gym, subsidised food etc.). Does a person risk their wage being adjusted to where they live like Facebook want to do?

It also becomes a bit of a green minefield, do I get more money because I live in an F rated house using storage heaters vs someone living in a passive haus?

Maybe in the public sector, but their wages are much lower anyway and already have a ton of crazy allowances and productivity would fall through the already low floor in places like the civil service.

Or maybe I'm wrong and it'll become the norm :)

HerrKuehn · 14-09-2021 9:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887094#Comment_117887094

I think this kind of attitude is a great example of why it is just easier if the PS moves back to full time in the office. At least then their employer won't be taking advantage of them by using part of their home rent free and they can have an ergonomist tell them how to sit in a chair.

jakiah · 14-09-2021 9:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886777#Comment_117886777

You should be in the office where your supervisor can watch you at all times IMO, you are totally unsuited to any kind of work outside of that context.

JTMan · 14-09-2021 10:28am

Sage members in the UK have advised that 'light touch' rules might be needed this Winter to deal with flu and Covid which could potentially overwhelming hospitals. 'Light touch' rules will include work from home. (Source: FT paywall'ed article here: https://www.ft.com/content/4625ac2f-6763-4646-8466-26ecac2ec4bf )

Meanwhile, US expert Scott Gottlieb, has said that the 'dual treat' of Covid and flu might become "too severe" in the Winter. He says that businesses need to adopt during peak flu and Covid season by shifting to WFH. (Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/endemic-covid-manageable-risk-dual-threat-influenza/620044/ )

I don't think Winter will bring a lockdown but it could easily bring 'light touch' rules during 'peak season' in Winter, especially if there is a covid case surge and a flu surge. Light touch rules will very likely include WFH.

Could WFH be mandatory every December - February?

Frank Bullitt · 14-09-2021 10:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887112#Comment_117887112

I can cal BS on you as well. The company I work for, does not even have an office, no physical space for us (a global workforce) to work in. So they provide a budget for us to get desks etc. They encourage you to get it all set up, but no, I have never been assessed in my working life.

I talked to a German colleague yesterday that will be working from Mexico for 3 months, our employer gives us that openness to do it. They might check on her subbed though to make sure it meets work standards :)

HerrKuehn · 14-09-2021 10:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888724#Comment_117888724

I think this type of situation will become more and more common. It happens a lot in startup type companies, but I can imagine in the future more established companies will start doing it. Of course companies like this will have to be careful to hire people that know how to sit in a chair without having an assessment.

My Company has a physical office, in the future I will only go in the odd time, maybe once a month. In this company I have not had an ergonomic assessment in the office or at home.

14-09-2021 11:08am

So much nonsense being spouted here. Been doing this for years for global companies which know what they are doing. The standard for hybrid working in my experience is mandatory online training, followed by self assessment, small IT grants for everyone for 2nd screens, stands etc, and an authorisation process for ordering ergonomic furniture should it be needed and subject to approval

Full time WFH is different and the process, in my experience, is more rigorous. But not many will be full time WFH

Frank Bullitt · 14-09-2021 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888780#Comment_117888780

Sounds like there are variations in this.

My company are not public, so the requirement for it might not be there. Same with a start-up, they may or may not have the obligations for that in place legally etc. With my current, it was shown to me that I had access to funds to acquire a home office set-up that would help me to work. So it was straight to Ikea for a few bits.

Quin_Dub · 14-09-2021 11:27am

I've been working remotely for 10-12 years at this stage - For a large IT MNC with multiple physical offices in Ireland and elsewhere.

This is how things worked both before and after Covid.

Before :-

Anyone could request WFH with support from their manager and sign up as a "Remote Worker".

If your job was deemed suitable , you could become a remote employee which meant being in the Office 2 days per week or less.

About 20% of the company were considered Remote employees.

When you signed up you had to complete an online assessment of both your work activity and your home setup , indicating that you had a proper desk, chair etc. In theory the company could arrange to send someone to assess your home setup but I'm not aware of that ever happening.

Once you signed up you lost your permanently assigned desk in the office , but there were "pods" of hot desks in each office for people to use when they came in.

There was also a small monthly stipend as a contribution towards your heat/light/broadband costs. You could also claim some expenses for initial setup costs for desk/chair etc.. All IT equipment was supplied as standard.

For me personally I went to the local office maybe 10 days a year at most , usually aligned with an overseas visitor being in town or for major events like a workshop or similar. I had no set agenda of X days per week/month or whatever.

I travelled quite a bit and spent on average about 60-70 night a year overseas at other company locations, so overall I probably spent ~75 days a year in some office or other , but not necessarily my local one.

During/After :-

Pretty much everyone in the company worldwide has been remote for the last 18 months , they categorised all staff into 4 groups ranging from Group 1 where being onsite was essential to their job (Manufacturing Staff or Engineering teams in Labs etc.) to Group 4 where location was irrelevant to Work activity. The majority of staff fell into Group 3 or 4 (I'm in Group 4).

Anyone newly working remote was allowed to take home office equipment , including their chairs to get setup at home.

As part of the "Return to work" program they introduced a number of changes. Everyone in Groups 2-4 above would no longer have a permanent assigned desk. All desks would now be "hot desks" that would have to be pre-booked prior to your arrival onsite.

Everyone had to sign up to confirm how many days per week they would be in the office and again if you picked less than 3 days per week you would be considered "remote" - 80%+ of Global staff chose that option with a significant number saying that they'd be 1 day per week or less onsite.

They removed the monthly stipend , to be replaced by a larger once off lump sum payment to cover costs of home office setup. however those of us already "remote" have thus far remained on our previous T&C's so we still get the stipend. You still have to complete the online self-assessment

They are currently re-doing all the offices removing quite a few desks and using the space for more meeting rooms and break-out areas to facilitate people when they do come to the office.

For the most part, the new process hasn't really kicked in yet as most countries are still recommending WFH where possible, but I expect that to start ramping up in the next few months. Overseas travel is still not allowed and probably won't be until Spring of next year at the earliest I'd imagine.

For me personally , I don't see myself ever travelling quite so much as Pre-Covid when things do finally open up fully so I expect my overseas days in the office to drop back quite a bit - Maybe 20-25 days a year , however I don't expect to be going to the local office more instead , so I'll probably settle in at about 30-35 days a year in a company office in future which would be a drop of ~50%.

ghoulfinger · 14-09-2021 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886002#Comment_117886002

Annual ergonomic checks are conducted in the public service, but often seem to be purely lip service in addressing potential legal issues where staff might take take a case. The employer then in their defence would respond by saying “look we have addressed the h&s in all its respects, including the ergonomic workstation checks.” Ordinary staff may volunteer to become certified as assessors.

There is no absolute specific law in this country demanding that this or that measure should be taken, rather there are best practice guidelines as per the HSA guide, which always points to the UK HSE guidelines as a gold standard resource. Public service H&S officers have been advised to rely on that resource.

As far as the private sector is concerned, it would likewise be motivated by the potential for legal action by workers. If they are to implement ergonomic assessments then it would mean assessors would have to travel to likes of remote outposts in Donegal or Kerry, but that would be down to recruiting local resources for this task.

HerrKuehn · 14-09-2021 11:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889021#Comment_117889021

It is 100% box ticking to prevent a future legal case where an employee states they were not trained in how to sit in their office chair. That is the kind of society we live in nowadays unfortunately.

ghoulfinger · 14-09-2021 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889040#Comment_117889040

And the insurance companies will be demanding these silly assessments if they are not doing already. So assessor arrives out and dictates that desk should be in this part of the room where the light falls perfectly or that this heater or ventilation should be installed, and then makes the re-inspection to confirm all us in place and then excel sheet column shows all Boolean “true”. Then employee moves desk etc back over to where it suits their home layout, it having taken up valuable living space the way the assessor signed off on it.

Quin_Dub · 14-09-2021 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889112#Comment_117889112

It'll be an online self assessment , that then puts all the risk back on the employee.

As I mentioned above , we have an online assessment with a bunch of links out to ergonomic videos and other information about how best to set things up.

You click a few boxes saying that your setup is compliant and hit submit.

Employers are now covered - "We gave you all the info you needed and you signed off to say that you had read and understood all that stuff , so any issues are all on you"

Working From Home Megathread

Comments

"What do I need to do to comply with the Display Screen Equipment Regulation 2007?