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What scares those who scream "conspiracy theorist"

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,641 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    did it really work? it turned the forum in a safe space for people to spout nonsense without challenge. why are you afraid of people questioning what you post?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,641 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    exactly, protection. why do people who post conspiracy theories need protecting? what makes their posts so special?



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Because they don't want to see questions about their conspiracy theories that might cause them to doubt things.

    To do this, they pretend questions like "what do you believe" and "why do you believe that" are somehow unreasonable.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. You ignore all questions when you aren't able to answer them.

    Like in this thread, you couldn't explain what your "real" beliefs were. The question can't be "self explanatory" as you need to actually explain your beliefs.


    Maybe if you answered questions directly rather than trying to dance around them to avoid the traps you think are there, you'd be having less of a bad time.

    But then, you'd be forced to think harder about your beliefs, and this is not allowed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,732 ✭✭✭weisses


    No it did not ..It provided a space where people could argue CT without being badgered and ridiculed by other posters.

    You should look at my posts here in this forum and then ask again if I am afraid of people questioning me?


    I find religion the biggest nonsense ever invented ..Should I be allowed to go on that forum and give them a piece of my mind ?


    What is wrong with the CT charter below ?

    • Do not demand proof for someone else's theories.
    • This forum is for the discussion of Theories: they may not be readily conclusive. Instead, provide a constructive counter-argument. "eg. Lizard people exist in NYC subways!" "Actually a 2017 study found that subways were only populated by rats - [source link]."
    • This forum is not for satire.
    • Yes, we ironically mention lizard-men a lot in here, but this forum is for genuine discussion on topics of merit.
    • Do not force conclusions.
    • Theories inherently are based on some supporting evidence, but that evidence frequently can neither be proven true nor false.
    • This is not a science forum or youtube channel.
    • Discussions that expect users to absorb hours worth of media snips and/or scientific lecturing to follow the context of the discussion do not belong here. Discussions that surround a specific piece of media (Eg. Loose Change, a popular 9/11 conspiracy film) belong in their own threads.
    • Do not regurgitate source material.
    • This is NOT a facebook wall. Videos/media/links you do include in your arguments need to be supported with your own words, enough that a reader should be able to follow the conversation without viewing the media - users may be on dial-up, behind firewalls, etc. that restrict their access to streaming content.
    • Address the topic, not the poster.
    • Back and forth between a handful of posters that goes on for pages and ages is the precursor to a thread falling off the rails. See the pyramid chart below for what is considered acceptable guidelines.
    • Respect the opinions of others.
    • Trying to spend 100 odd posts convincing 1 or 2 specific users that your views are more valid than theirs is what causes the most issues. You have to accept that not all people are willing to alter their beliefs to suit you - and they have the freedom to hold those beliefs (short of soapboxing). Remember: many users read, but do not post, and may be interested in reading your opinions - so the opinion of 2 or 3 other prolific posters is rarely meaningful, and should neither be seen as a victory or a threat.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,641 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    this isn't just about you and your posts. asking questions is not badgering. asking questions is not ridiculing. If other posters are ridiculing you then report the posts. that is against the rules. BTW one of those rules is broken constantly and nothing is ever done about it. The one about not regurgitating source material. posts with nothing but a long YT video is not a discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,732 ✭✭✭weisses


    This thread is not about my beliefs other then the false disingenuous misrepresentation of said beliefs spouted by you.. I kindly point you to the relevant threads regarding my beliefs

    Plus Dohnjoe making nonsensical accusations at the same time .... Ur a nice bunch



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    I find religion the biggest nonsense ever invented ..Should I be allowed to go on that forum and give them a piece of my mind ?


    There are often threads on the religion forums asking why people believe what they believe. They usually manage to come up with more than just pretending the question had been asked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,732 ✭✭✭weisses


    Do you find anything wrong with that charter ?



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    If this was a sub of a creative writing forum then people would still be expected to have put some thought into the back story of their ideas. There is more evidence to support the story of Harry Potter than there is for most things posted in here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,641 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    I have no issues with the changes made to the charter.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yes I know. But the fact you won't even explain what your beliefs are in a concise way is illustrative of the points I was making.

    Specifically, your beliefs about 9/11 (regardless of the details of what those beliefs are) would be considered to be invalid by other conspiracy theorists who hold beliefs that you would call invalid.

    You aren't able to explain what your beliefs actually are and you go to massive lengths to avoid ever actually outlining them. So how could anyone say your beliefs are valid? How can anyone tell the difference between valid and invalid conspiracies?

    And your reluctance to actually discuss your own beliefs and inability to explain them shows the problem with conspiracy theory thinking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,732 ✭✭✭weisses


    So you find the charter presented in the form I posted acceptable ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,535 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You are trying to change the charter to one in which conspiracy theorists didn't have to support their conspiracy theories

    By a remarkable coincidence, you are a 9/11 truther who denies the facts surrounding 9/11 but don't have any alternative explanation or theory and refuse to support any

    People complain about being labelled "conspiracy theorists", then on the other hand they demand special conditions to exclude them from normal debate and discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,641 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    I'm quite happy with the current forum charter. It seems reasonable to me. You just don't want people asking questions about your posts.

    This forum is not for satire.

    Yes, we ironically mention lizard-men a lot in here, but this forum is for genuine discussion on topics of merit. Balance levity with substance dammit.

    This is not a youtube dump.

    Discussions that surround a specific piece of media (Eg. Loose Change, a popular 9/11 conspiracy film) belong in their own threads.[/I]

    Do not just plagiarize or regurgitate source material.

    This is NOT a facebook wall. Videos/media/links you do include in your arguments need to be supported with your own words, enough that a reader should be able to follow the conversation without viewing the media - users may be on dial-up, behind firewalls, etc. that restrict their access to streaming content.

    Address the topic, not the poster.

    Back and forth between a handful of posters that goes on for pages and ages is the precursor to a thread falling off the rails. See the pyramid chart below for what is considered acceptable guidelines.

    Respect the opinions of others.

    Trying to spend 100 odd posts convincing 1 or 2 specific users that your views are more valid than theirs is what causes the most issues. You have to accept that not all people are willing to alter their beliefs to suit you - and they have the freedom to hold those beliefs (short of soapboxing). Remember: many users read, but do not post, and may be interested in reading your opinions - so the opinion of 2 or 3 other prolific posters is rarely meaningful, and should neither be seen as a victory or a threat.

    No Bigotry

    Meaning: no Antisemitism, Islamophobia, etc. - yes, while "The Jews" are the focus of many outlandish CTs, there are other places you can go elsewhere online to bemoan the ruling of the world by Jews or something. It doesn't further discussion in any meaningful way, and is just an outlet to hate on, or "Other," those of a different world view.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,732 ✭✭✭weisses


    There are so many things I belief are valid opinions regarding 9/11

    I think on some level it was allowed to happen

    I belief the NIST wtc7 collapse hypothesis does not allow for freefall to occur hence their conclusions based on that collapse model are wrong.. But all these and many more things I believe are discussed at length in the relevant forums


    What is your unhealthy obsession with me repeating them over and over ... We discussed this at length over the years



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,535 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    On the one hand your believe your opinions are valid but on the other your opinions are special and require special rules.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is actually fairly sinister tbh and should be taken up in the feedback forum I reckon..

    (Unless it was already..)


    That it was overheal that did it is just typical too, as he engages in very similar tactics to King Mob over in the CA forum..



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But this doesn't really answer my point.

    I'm asking you how you tell the difference between what is valid and what isn't.

    You are now claiming that you just disagree with the NIST's report. I take it that means you agree that it's not possible that the building was demolished then.


    So if a conspiracy theorist suggested that the building was demolished secretly, in your opinion, is this a valid conspiracy theory or an invalid one?

    What if they claimed that it was demolished by secret silent explosives? Valid or invalid?

    What if they claimed that it was demolished by 3 people? Valid or invalid.


    Again, not discussing the particulars of these theories, I'm asking if you view them as valid or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭storker


    Well I was hoping to be able to do a party trick involving hanging cutlery from my magnetic upper arm so I'm feeling very let down I can tell you.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Weird that moderna was taken off the market in Japan for having traces of metal in it though..



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Again, you're not making a very good case for the integrity of you lot when you misrepresent things.

    Japan did not take moderna off the market. It recalled a few batches.

    Why did you claim that it was taken off the market when this is debunked by 5 seconds on google?

    Did you not know what you were saying was false? Or did you know and you were lying?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I saw the minister saying they were going to stop using it..

    That article doesn't say they're going to keep using other batches..those batches were 1.6 million doses..And different from the other contaminated batches..



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Where did you see the minister say this? What minister?

    The government has signed contracts to receive an additional 50 million doses of Moderna's vaccine as well as 150 million doses from Novavax Inc. and is discussing an additional 120 million doses with Pfizer. The vaccine doses will be used if the government decides to administer booster shots.

    Again. Why did you claim that the vaccine was going to be taken off the market?

    Did you not check if this was true before posting it? Did you know it was not true?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Nope, did you read the article? Japan ordered 1.6 million doses. they have already administered 500,000 of them.

    The three people who died had not been given the contaminated batch.

    A contaminated batch has been withdrawn and so were some other batches produced around the same time, but haven't been found to be contaminated.

    The deaths of the three people has not been linked to the vaccine and they haven't said what the cause was.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Great. Very mature for you to actually cop to a mistake. Very refreshing too.

    Could you still answer the question though. Did you post that claim without actually check if it was true?

    You claimed to "see the minister saying they were going to stop using it" Why did you claim this? Did you just make it up on the spot?


    Do you see how this kind of thing is a bit illustrative of what conspiracy theorists do and why it's a problem?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why bother..It's not like it will stop you asking questioons..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭EyesClosed


    But asking why and fact checking what you post before you post it is very important.

    The question is did you actually check your sources or did you just glance at something and post it as fact is important.

    People don't check things these days, they see something that sounds scary and run with it, hence all fake news crap we get via social media.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,732 ✭✭✭weisses


    Stop talking out of your backside .... The charter was fine the way it was. I was only proposing to revert it back In the old charter you also had to provide supporting evidence .... Evidence that didnt suit the likes of you and the mod in question ..That why it was changed.

    The fact you were allowed to post a thread where you wanted to establish some ground rules of your own says it all


    Now get of your high horse and stop making stuff up



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Well could you possibly have read something, missed part of the statement, posted before completely checking the facts in a bit of a rush?


    Maybe a bit like a news reporter on live TV might do in a rapidly evolving news story, who reads a partial update on something happening, misses a critical part of the line of text, reports it live on the telly and then it turns out they had got it wrong and the thing they said had happened haddn't actually happened.

    Could that possibly be what you just did?


    Or would an alternative view be that you personally have been receiving top level diplomatic notifications from the Japanese Government on their vaccine program?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Can you post this in feedback or contact admins about it or something?

    The forum has been destroyed the last couple of years..

    It's almost nasty these days..An air of bullying almost..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,694 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Genuine question, where did you first see the story about Moderna batch being recalled?

    Was it on an proper, fact checked website from a reputable news source?

    Or was it from social media?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,732 ✭✭✭weisses


    When will you reflect on the rubbish you are spouting here ?



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lol Yea. People should stop asking questions. That sounds right for a conspiracy theorist.


    So since you're again avoiding questions when caught out, we have a perfect self contained example of the issues with conspiracy theorists.

    You made a claim that was false. Most likely because you half remembered something, and you did nothing to verify if it was true or not.

    Then when challenged on it, you still didn't do any checking, you doubled down on the untruth. You even seemed to pluck a new factoid out of the air. You claimed to have heard something from a minister. This could be something you half remembered, it could be something you just made up on the spot. I can't tell.

    Then after it was made abundantly clear that your claim was false you admittedly did the mature thing and cop to it. But now, you're returning to the same dishonest tactics of ignoring and avoiding things that make you doubt your beliefs.


    This exact thing seems to be happening again and again on different scales for conspiracy theorists.

    Thank you for illustrating the points being made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭EyesClosed


    Bullying? 😂😂

    Asking someone to explain why they believe what they do is bullying now? Amazing



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    When you guys are actually able to address my points without running away and whinging.

    Why would I change my position because dishonest people keep being dishonest and ignoring difficult questions.


    Are you going to go back and address the last batch of very short questions I asked you?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well, unlike yourself I don't have all day and a filofax of articles ready for arguing about conspiracy theories online..



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's almost like conspiracy theorists are embarrassed by the reasons they believe what they believe. Almost as if it's a shameful secret they don't want to discuss...



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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lol. I went to google. I typed "Japan moderna vaccine" and got the articles is less than 5 seconds.

    Why did you not do that before making your claims?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,753 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Well take this point here


    • "Theories inherently are based on some supporting evidence, but that evidence frequently can neither be proven true nor false."


    Some supporting evident being the important part, when was the last time a conspiracy theorist posted any sort of "supporting evidence"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,535 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    That was a temporarily changed charter. Basically mods, one in particular, was sick of dealing with all the arguments here, so the bottom line became: conspiracy theorists don't need to support their claims.

    Of course it's your personal opinion that it was a good change because it suited your 9/11 beliefs, and it didn't matter who disagreed with it (or even bothered to read the charter thread) because it was a mod decision. The forum was still a dumpster fire after, but it was just easier for people to make baseless claims.

    You want special treatment for conspiracy theories because you could slide in the "hey they are just conspiracy theories" with one hand, while shoehorning in your shaky 9/11 conspiracy stuff with the other, win, win.

    CTs are all fun and games until people are not getting vaccinated due to them, banging down doors to congress due to them, etc.

    No matter how silly they get, I don't believe people who attack history, current affairs, medical science, etc in order to replace them with highly questionable conspiracies should be given a safe space and special treatment.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    it also bares pointing out that no one is stopping conspiracy theorists from posting their conspiracy theories. There's claims posted here that would get justified bans from lots of places.

    People asking questions does not prevent this.

    People asking questions only prevents the illusion that the conspiracy theories are unquestionably true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 469 ✭✭jakiah


    Why does boards facilitate conspiracy theorists at all? On other platforms like reddit the people posting Covid misinformation are 1) savaged by other users via the comment section (and downvotes), and 2) banned by the mods.

    Yet on boards you cant open a Covid thread without some numpty who is active on the conspiracy theory forum happily posting away with his stupid nonsense. If you have a go at them, boards sanctions YOU and threatens to remove you from their platform. Its an absolute joke.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,535 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    I've noticed my friends/colleagues during this pandemic seem to have a lot less patience/tolerance for the anti-vax types and deniers and pseudo-science. Indeed, I think that overall mood towards disinformation is being reflected on sites like Reddit, where there's been a backlash

    That said, the site has a conspiracy forum which is an absolute cesspit, Holocaust denial, anti-vaxx, everything.



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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wasn’t that the aim of this forum - a safe space.

    its true the vax conspiracy guys did in fact harm the population. Conspiracies about 9/11 though seem like they lose faith in militarism. It’s a pity they weren’t strong enough to stop the Iraq war, for instance. I don’t get the angst about that.

    each theory should be judged on its merits, or demerits.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not really. A best conspiracies like 9/11 only distract from actual issues.

    At the same time it fosters unhealthy distrust in actual experts journalists and institutions. For example if you believe in some versions of 9/11 conspiracies you could also believe that large swathes of the engineering sector are in on the plot. And if all of them could be in on the plot maybe the entire climate science sector is also involved in a plot to fake climate change.

    Believing it for one conspiracy makes it easier to believe for another.


    Then on top of that we have bullshit merchants like Alex Jones who build a disprotionately influential media empire based in part on 9/11 shite.


    No one is talking about banning conspiracy theories like that here.

    We're just saying that people should also be free to question and challenge them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,535 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Not sure that was the aim, appears to be a forum for a collection of stuff considered to be conspiracy theories, but indeed that shouldn't embue it with some magical powers that it can't be challenged like anything else.

    I know there are forums for people who believe in ghosts and werewolves and whatever, and certain leeway is given, but those people aren't exactly attacking Congress or tell others to ingest animal dewormers

    Imagine if the history forum had a sub-forum for the Holocaust with special rules for deniers to make it easier for them..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 469 ✭✭jakiah


    Ive no issue with these **** having their little fantasties in their own forums, they should absolutely not be allowed on normal Covid threads where people want to discuss the pandemic with normal people, not people who think the moon is made of cheese or whatever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭storker




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