Upscalers, modern TVs and related blasphemy

o1s1n · 19-08-2021 3:20pm #1

I thought we had a thread about scalers here but can't for the life of me find it on the new Vanilla boards.

I've a move coming up and am culling a hell of a lot of my collection, mostly duplicates and things I don't need, but a big hard hit is CRTs. Still keeping the cabs so I won't be totally going cold turkey but I need to start looking into the world of scalers for the time being to play consoles on a big screen.

Last time I searched out info, the xRGB Framemeister was the ****, with the OSSC also being rated up there. The Framemeister now costs a ridiculous amount of cash, so I'm guessing the OSSC is the way to go?

I see there's also the RetroTINK out there too, anyone heard anything about that?

Retr0gamer · 19-08-2021 3:36pm

Forget the Framemesiter. Great bit of kit but they are no longer made anymore. Also it's a bit finnicky with 460i/p signals. I've to try and sort my own one out for that.

Not sure now if the latest best one is the OSSC or retroTINK.

Steve X2 · 19-08-2021 4:04pm

You're probably talking about an OSSC or RetroTink 5X. To be honest, ever since I got the 5X I've rarely used the OSSC. The latest scanline update is quite something. Best scanlines I've seen on a scaler.

https://www.retrorgb.com/retrotink5x-new-scanline-features.html

Inviere · 19-08-2021 4:49pm

I'm chiming in here to go full vulture, o1s1n keep me in mind if moving on any 21"ish crts :)

Colonel Panic · 19-08-2021 5:34pm

I'll exchange my knowledge for a CRT also. I've got the space and my wife never goes into the garden room! :D

I've got an OSSC, RetroTink 2X SCART and RetroTink 5X, so yeah, I'm an idiot about getting scalers.

Setting that up on an OSSC with custom horizontal sampling rates for different consoles is a nightmare, as is setting it up again after an update. There is an online config tool to help, but nuts to that. It does have VGA input though, which is nice. I'm trying to talk myself into selling it, but I hate having to sell anything like this :/ It sounds like I'm dismissing it, but it's an amazing scaler.

The RetroTink 5X includes presets for horizontal sampling rates for different consoles and sees frequent updates to tweak them. It also handles 240p to 480i transitions without dropouts and has an adaptive deinterlating mode that beats the OSSC bob deinterlacing hands down.

The RetroTink 2X is a fine line doubler, in a pinch, but there's zero features beyond some awful filters and 2X upscaling is only okay. I keep this for my test bench only

o1s1n · 19-08-2021 7:05pm

Thanks for all the info folks! So it looks like a Retrotink 5X is probably the way to go at the moment. quite like that it comes in a professionally finished shell casing too and I'm not into mad technical setups at the moment so if it's easier than it's probably a winner. Now if only it were in stock somewhere! I'll do a bit of hunting and see what I can come up with.

The OSSC is still fairly affordable though so I may just end up buying both...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117777177#Comment_117777177

Haha! Never thought I'd see the day where you'd want to return to the CRT world! The main one on the move is the 20 inch BVM and it looks like good oul Mr Burton is going to give that a home in his cave of wonder. Really hard CRT to let go, especially given the sub 10,000 hours of use... probably never find another one again. Kind of have a weird Sophie's choice between three children, the BVM, SNK 25 and Pony...with the cabs winning in the end.

Still have my little 14 inch PVM that I'm going to hang onto and see if I can fit it in somewhere. My grandparents still have that 29 inch CRT in their house that I grew up playing on, so I might nab that in future...

Colonel Panic · 19-08-2021 7:26pm

You made the right call keeping the cabinets!

And considering my OSSC as part trade for the other 14" PVM if you don't have the room! :D

Colonel Panic · 20-08-2021 10:25am

Just got a DC SCART cable from RetroGamingCables that supports 480p, so trying out the DC with my RetroTink5x. I was tempted to install a DC Digital, but given how good this looks, there's no point!

I also got a sync on luma Saturn SCART cable which has considerably less noise visible than my sync on composite cable.

This is actually something to keep in mind actually. Cable quality matters a bit more compared to a CRT. With poorly shielded cables, you can see noise on blacks and other sold colours.

itguyinaction · 20-08-2021 2:07pm

There is also one aspect more. If you want to use only one retro devices to your lcd tv you can skip reading the next part.

Usually people collect different retro consoles or computers and have many of them at home. Some have s-video output and some rgb output (and some composite only but that's usually not an issue). I wasn't able to find any retro scaler accepting both s-video and rgb input. There is only one either the another one, never both. It means that quite often you have to buy at least 2 devices. That's a bit disappoining. Sure you can use composite but it gives the worst quality. Do you know any device having s-video and rbg as input?

The second thing are different videos modes. Ex. one device can only accept 480i/p mode, while Atari or Commodore displays 240p mode and then it will not work. I believe the subject is much more complicated than expected...

Retr0gamer · 20-08-2021 2:29pm

xRGB had a plethora of inputs which was nice. Pretty sure it covered everything up to and including component.

Colonel Panic · 20-08-2021 2:42pm

The RetroTink5X supports RGBS and composite over SCART, YPbPr component, composite and S-Video. There's some port sharing going on though for audio if you're not using SCART so I don't think it's very practical.

The OSSC has RGBS over SCART, YPbPr component and RGBHV over DSub 15.

It's probably best to stick to one type of input where possible and use an external switcher.

Inviere · 21-08-2021 6:54pm

"Haha! Never thought I'd see the day where you'd want to return to the CRT world!"

I actually have two of them, a 14" Trini from my childhood, and a 21" Ferguson that has a nice output. That said, one more wouldn't hurt lol, just incase....

Colonel Panic · 24-08-2021 7:13pm

RetroTink 5x stock on the 28th.

https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1430233537135796225

o1s1n · 24-08-2021 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798980#Comment_117798980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117777819#Comment_117777819

Excellent thanks! Have set a reminder to let me know once it goes on sale, fingers crossed I can nab one before they're all gone.

Colonel Panic · 12-09-2021 5:40pm

Updated RetroTink5x to latest firmware. Trying aperture grille "scanlines". I think I can be at peace with this filter.

Tuning 480p Dreamcast for the OSSC. Ratio is finally correct!

o1s1n · 14-09-2021 12:36pm

Just got a nice juicy import VAT bill in for my RetroTink5x. Was fully expecting it but still, always painful!

On the plus side I should be getting this in the post from DHL tomorrow, really looking forward to giving it a go.

Colonel Panic · 14-09-2021 4:19pm

https://www.retrotink.com/amp/retrotink-5x-pro-firmware-updates

I read a tweet saying they ship with 1.24 firmware so take a look at what’s been added since!

Inviere · 14-09-2021 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889557#Comment_117889557

Have a look at this while you're waiting, good and recent vid on it https://youtu.be/F27cw2sWHMk

Colonel Panic · 14-09-2021 7:23pm

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing%3A4881969

I got my brother in law to print one of these in red. It's pretty sweet!

o1s1n · 15-09-2021 7:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891340#Comment_117891340

That was a great watch, thanks!

Inviere · 16-09-2021 6:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117896806#Comment_117896806

Yeah I always enjoy Anthony's vids, he's a serious techie, but a retro gamer at heart.

Retr0gamer · 16-09-2021 8:54am

...

o1s1n · 16-09-2021 8:58pm

Hey dudes - am I being a complete moron (probably) or is there something up with my unit?

I've installed two firmware versions to check (1.77 and 1.74) - when I press the H.Sampling button with a mouse on it, all I can get are two options - generic 4:3 and generic 16:9. I can't seem to find all the different console options.

From what I've read/watched, pressing the H.Sampling button should cycle through all the options?

Doge · 17-09-2021 6:28am

Whats this, the CRT connoisseur is selling his CRT collection?!!! 😮

The world is truly ending! You don’t deserve that Diagram of the CRT that was made in Germany anymore ! 😛

Colonel Panic · 17-09-2021 9:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901583#Comment_117901583

What output resolution and what input device are you using?

o1s1n · 17-09-2021 10:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902291#Comment_117902291

Jesus you've some memory on you! Haha

I actually only found that over the weekend while getting ready to move. Never did stick it up on the wall in the end, maybe in the new spot...

Not to worry, I'm still keeping the PVM 14L4 and my cabs with their lovely Toshiba tubes, so not totally out of the game. Just sold the Ikegami, a 9 inch PVM and the 20 inch BVM is soon to go...(sob!)

The scaler does produce lovely results but but yeah, definitely still not a CRT replacement. Although saying that, I think I'll need to upgrade my TV to an OLED to really get a nice picture out of it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902951#Comment_117902951

1080p resolution out with RGB in, does the output/input have a bearing on the H.Sampling options? Ill try a different resolution this evening to see if they appear.

Inviere · 17-09-2021 10:57am

Even seeing o1s1n posting the term "1080p" is odd...

Colonel Panic · 17-09-2021 11:50am

There's apparently some limitations when it comes to 1440p, @o1s1n, but you're at 1080p so that's all good.

In terms of input resolutions, again I remember seeing less horizontal sampling options at some resolutions. 480p only supports DTV (which is aspect correct) and 16:9.

I fired up my Gamecube and started a game without progressive scan on and it did seem to cycle through all the custom sampling modes though so I could be wrong!

o1s1n · 18-09-2021 11:35am

Figured out what the issue is, it doesn't seem to gel too well with my modified Super Famicom - tried the Saturn this afternoon and getting some nice results, was able to shuffle through all the different h.sampling console settings.

CiDeRmAn · 20-09-2021 8:39am

Did someone say... 20" PVM????

o1s1n · 20-09-2021 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913924#Comment_117913924

None of that pauper PVM stuff, this is a 20 inch BVM.

Meant to be going to casa de la Jack Burton... if he's not able to take it I'll put it in a room with a load of knives and let you all fight it out :D

Colonel Panic · 20-09-2021 12:35pm

It would look greeeat in my person cave!

Colonel Panic · 28-09-2021 12:07pm

Just got a GameBoy Player so trying out GBI 360P support on the RT5X as well as its LCD filter. I'm very impressed!

Victor McDade · 30-09-2021 8:06pm

Can anyone who bought the 5x say what the total price was after tax and shipping? Tempted to upgrade from the OSSC

o1s1n · 04-10-2021 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960813#Comment_117960813

I've been afraid to work that out...!

310 for the item shipped and then I think it was 65 tax when it landed. So 375 in total or thereabouts.

Does anyone notice that the scart port on it is a little, saggy? When you connect up a scart cable it sags down a bit, was worried about it putting pressure on the connections so I've put some supports under it to keep it level.

Might have to get one of those 3D printed vertical stands to keep the scart connection stable.

Victor McDade · 04-10-2021 7:07pm

Nice one, thanks. 375 is a bit lower than I expected, might pull the trigger in the next restock

o1s1n · 04-10-2021 7:49pm

It's totally worth it to be honest. I'm sitting here happily playing my Saturn on a big Sony panel and dare I say it, it looks really really good.

Victor McDade · 06-10-2021 5:19am

Good stuff, I'll keep an eye on Mike's twitter, he usually gives an update on restock dates ahead of time

BuckoA51 · 15-10-2021 7:09pm

I've been trying to get stock of the 5x for months never get allocated any :( Official EU reseller and still not got even one for myself lol.

CathalDublin · 09-11-2021 4:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118133663#Comment_118133663

Wondering the same, €375 is a bit rich for the retrotink for me as I rarely get the chance to fire up a console but I could spend €80 on an ossc and be happy for it to gather dust

Colonel Panic · 09-11-2021 4:58pm

The OSSC is great, but I mentioned its shortcomings upthread - Not great for interlaced content, not great for frequent resolution changes, hard to configure vs the RetroTink5x built-in horizontal sampling modes.

That said, it’s mostly plug and play, unless aspect ratio issues bother you, and at that point, you’ll always find a guide.

I couldn’t bring myself to sell mine so I plugged it into one of my office displays.

CathalDublin · 09-11-2021 9:48pm

That’s exactly what I wanted it for, to have on my office desk for playing the odd SNES/MD game on, I’ll still need something for my c64/speccy but i suppose I can plug a Koryuu into it but that’s another €100 or just buy a RetroTINK 2X-Mini for a little cheaper

Colonel Panic · 11-11-2021 1:27pm

The RetroTink2x SCART is a good option. There's a few caveats - you'll need to set your display to 4:3 manually, and turn the sharpness right down to get good results since it's only doubling input video

Colonel Panic · 22-12-2021 9:32am

Pretty big RetroTink 5x firmware update just released. New OSD, lots of filters, good sensible defaults but tweakable if you want.

o1s1n · 10-01-2022 9:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118359797#Comment_118359797

Finally got around to giving this a go, that was some update. The ability to crop the image is brilliant, currently playing Sonic in PVM 600 mode with the blue underscan bars cropped out and it looks amazing.

Steve X2 · 10-01-2022 10:07pm

This new scaler and switch from PixelFX looks pretty interesting. I'm liking the configurability of the infinity switch and the fact that the upscaler and switch can communicate. Lots of potential and hopefully they can get it out the door this year.

https://www.retrorgb.com/pixelfx-announces-infinity-switch-morph-specs.html

Colonel Panic · 10-01-2022 10:25pm

@o1s1n - Great isn't it? The overscan on some console is so annoying. The NES is another culprit!

@Steve X2 - I love that the inputs can include HDMI, which I'm guessing can be just passed though.

Steve X2 · 10-01-2022 11:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452769#Comment_118452769

I think it can scale the HDMI as well as pass it through directly.

o1s1n · 11-01-2022 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452769#Comment_118452769

Indeed! It just feels like with every firmware iteration, I'm getting more and more image controls from my CRTs over to a flat panel, it's brilliant.

I was watching their release video on the page you can download the latest firmware and some of the interlacing modes with their CRT emulation effects really look very authentic - quite excited to give that a go with some 480i content.

HDMI on that PixelFX is very interesting, funnily enough I was only wondering if there was some way of getting HDMI through the Retrotink last night while playing some games on my Switch, would love to get some good scanlines on modern sprite games.

Colonel Panic · 11-01-2022 10:51am

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00R19BG7O/ref%3Dcm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_V091QYMZ4Z9F4X48PHRM?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

HDMI to component into your RetroTink!

o1s1n · 11-01-2022 12:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454389#Comment_118454389

Oh yes! I forgot it had component inputs on the back - haven't any other use for them so I might as well use them to get HDMI in there :)

Upscalers, modern TVs and related blasphemy

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