Energy infrastructure

Busman Paddy Lasty · 30-08-2021 8:51am

German costs getting mentioned a lot. That's what happens when you decide to close nuclear power stations in a knee jerk reaction to an avoidable accident in Japan.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0SQ1G520151101

From the article....

"The main problem is the lack of planning in how to tackle the up to 80 billion euros ($88 billion) cost of decommissioning Germany's atomic reactors."

bk · 30-08-2021 11:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821469#Comment_117821469

I'm well aware of the difference. And I'm also well aware that we use gas when the wind isn't generating and I'm fully supportive of that (though would like to see it reduced in time). NG plants are a great support to wind given that they can be spun up and down relatively quickly (at least compared to Nuclear and coal).

The point is to use as much wind as possible to reduce the polluting output of the gas plants as much as possible.

And before you say about this being expensive. It is actually cheaper to do this, then just having gas plants running all the time. Gas costs money to run these plants, wind is free, so having both and running gas only when needed works out cheaper.

Of course I'm talking about our 2030 goals here. 2050 Net zero will be a bit different. Most likely lots of Wind and Solar + interconnectors + hydro + battery storage + hydrogen + gas carbon capture and storage.

bk · 30-08-2021 11:45am

"And here I was suggesting a 440 MW SMR from RR."

While not mentioned in the article, in the actual radio show, the same professor mentioned that the RR SMR's look interesting and would be better fit for our grid and would be worth looking at in 10 years time if actually built.

The problem with your RR SMR suggestion is that they don't exist. RR hasn't built a single reactor, hell they haven't even built the factory to produce these reactors yet and the UK government haven't even given it the go ahead yet. It is still in the design phase.

Given the history of failed SMR projects, it would be incredibly foolish to be putting any bets on it.

If they actually manage to produce reactors, then great, we can look at them and see how the economics work (and then see if we can covincce the people of Ireland to build one, I doubt it).

But for now, they are nothing but a flashy brochure and website.

cnocbui · 30-08-2021 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822481#Comment_117822481

Since when have things not existing been a problem for this thread? Iron air batteries that have reached commercialisation when actually they are just beginning to look into them - grid scale Li-ion batteries that can run an entire nations load off for a week straight when the winds not blowing, and yet which simply don't exist. Hydrogen everything. The casual way people drop mention of pie-in-the-sky technologies as being absolutes and proven solutions is mind boggling.

bk · 30-08-2021 12:21pm

I completely appreciate this argument. In my mind, there are two different goals here, there are the 2030 goal and the 2050 goal.

The 2030 70% renewable goal, this is very doable with the technologies we already have and are proven, mostly wind + interconnectors + NG plants.

The 2050 net zero goal is a different conversation and yes, you are correct, it will likely involve technologies that are currently unproven, hydrogen, CCS, battery storage and yes SMR's.

That is why I say that for now we just need to focus on the 2030 goal and once it is done, we can then look at if RR has actually produced the SMR's and how they compete on price against battery/hydrogen/CCS/more interconnectors, then.

Of course if the SMR's look good, you still have the incredibly difficult uphill battle of convincing the people of Ireland to install one. I think if any other option is also successful and comes even close on price, then there is little hope of the Irish people, rightfully or wrongfully, agreeing to buy one.

BTW No one is suggesting we use Lithium Ion batteries for multiple days of grid storage! They are currently used instead of gas peakers for 4 hours. Which BTW is great since gas peakers are much more expensive and polluting then gas CC plants. So these batteries are saving both money and lots of pollution.

Instead LFP seems to be a front runner for longer term storage and BTW it isn't a new technology, BYD, one of the largest battery manufacturers in the world has been making them and putting them in their electric buses and trucks for the past 10 years. Flow batteries, Iron air are newer tech alright and yes I'd have big question marks if they will be successful or not.

dubhthach · 30-08-2021 4:52pm

The Moss Landing battery (Commissioned January 2021) was recently upgrade to 400MW/1600MWh (completed August 21st) is a good example of use to replace peaking plants. I don't see cost of the 100MW/400MWh upgrade but initial cost was $400m for 300MW/1200MWh system as ordered in 2019.

One of major issues with lack of storage in grid at the moment is that at certain times power from both installed Wind and Solar has to be 'dispatched down' eg. Eirgrid tells operator to either produce less or to power down entirely. Reasons for doing this are generally there's excess power been generated and it's presence on grid will result in Frequency issue.

Obviously if you have large scale batteries on the grid (of size of Moss Landing) you can buffer the inputs from renewals thus getting rid of need to 'dispatch down', unsurprisingly for Wind the peak time for dispatch-down is the middle of the night:

This is equivalent of about 250-350MW of Wind generation been shut off every night between 23:00 and 07:00

Obviously solar has a very different peak when it comes to been dispatched-down, however it's not a major source of power as of let.

Just on the existing install base of renewables ye could easily run a 500MW/2000MWH facility (ala Moss Landing) and that's before we add even more renewables over the next 5 years. The Curtailments (SNSP, HiFreq/MinGen) are the low lying fruit. The Constraints can be bit harder to mitigate as they are usually tied in with grid maintenance or local issues such as circuit capacity (thence the original goal of Grid West to upgrade from 110kv circuits to 400kv HVDC).

dubhthach · 30-08-2021 6:02pm

Just on the subject of Grid reinforcement I see the following on Eirgrid's page on proposed 400kv cross-Shannon cable:

June 2021

EirGrid are pleased to announce that we received confirmation from An Bord Pleanála on 4th June that the Cross Shannon 400 kV Project received planning approval following the submittal of the Strategic Infrastructure Development application last August, and a Request for Further Information in December.

This is a significant milestone that has been achieved in the project’s programme. We now look forward to closing off the foreshore licence process with the Dept. of Housing and completing the scoping process with ESB Engineering & Major Projects, which will facilitate the delivery of this major system reinforcement for the south west region and the wider electricity transmission system.

EirGrid would like to sincerely thank all stakeholders that engaged in the planning application process over 2019 & 2020. Your input and feedback has allowed for the project to reach this milestone and we will continue to brief stakeholders as necessary as the project progresses into the construction phase.

https://www.pleanala.ie/anbordpleanala/media/abp/cases/orders/307/d307798.pdf

Construction scheduled to start in 2022 with commissioning in 2023.

This ties in with the Kilpaddoge-Knockanure underground 220kv cable and will make it lot easier to transmit power from renewables in the SW efficiently to Dublin (using the Dublin Moneypoint 400kv circuits)

Capt'n Midnight · 30-08-2021 11:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821480#Comment_117821480

How much hydro does France have ?

How much power does it import/export to other countries exp. Germany ?

How do you explain France reducing nuclear from 75% to 50% ?

How are EDF doing with 'on time, on budget' ?

How much are they spending on upgrading redundancy at nuclear plants ? - the old plan was that the other reactor would provide cooling power if one went offline. Japan earthquake/tsunami and several floods in France later they've understood that both reactors can go off line at - the - same time :eek:

Capt'n Midnight · 30-08-2021 11:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822481#Comment_117822481

Point of information : RR build the reactors for the UK's submarine fleet.

They have 60+ years of experience of failing to deliver economic SMR's, VTOL lift jets for airliners and other repeated projects.

Birdnuts · 31-08-2021 1:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822420#Comment_117822420

"Wind is free" - you seriously need to stop posting such utter nonsense and start learning about what a modern grid needs in the real world

Birdnuts · 31-08-2021 2:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825670#Comment_117825670

Macron is trying to get the greens onside(who know as much about energy grids as Greta Thunberg knows about climate science) by winding down some of the nukes in favour of windmills. Predictably this has lead to emissions and costs starting to show an upward trend there in the last few years. Though still far superior on both counts to your wind bloated pals in Germany.

https://strom-report.de/electricity-prices-europe/

https://environmentalprogress.org/big-news/2017/2/11/german-electricity-was-nearly-10-times-dirtier-than-frances-in-2016

dubhthach · 31-08-2021 2:24am

The Kildare-Meath grid upgrade project (Capital project 966) involves building an underground 400kv AC circuit between Dunstown and Woodland substations. This is to help with increasing the efficiency of the transfer of power from sources of generation in the SW and South to the Greater Dublin region.

There are currently 4 proposed options (labelled A-D) as discussed in Stage 4 consultation that is currently ongoing until November:

https://consult.eirgrid.ie/system/files/materials/2055/EirGrid%20Kildare%20Meath%20Upgrade%20Step%204%20Brochure.pdf

31-08-2021 11:43pm

Great to see progress

https://www.clare.fm/news/energy-environment/construction-due-get-underway-moneypoint-green-atlantic-project-shortly/

dubhthach · 01-09-2021 8:46am

Seems Siemens got the contract:

https://press.siemens-energy.com/global/en/pressrelease/siemens-energys-grid-stabilizer-technology-help-irish-grid-exceed-renewables

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWMILvupWac

More details on their tech can be read here:

https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/offerings/power-transmission/portfolio/flexible-ac-transmission-systems/synchronous-condenser.html

10-09-2021 12:30am

440MW windfarm going up off the Connemara coast

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/multinational-buys-rights-to-develop-e1bn-windfarm-off-connemara/

gjim · 10-09-2021 9:51am

Here's an interesting story on battery grid storage in Ireland here - https://www.energy-storage.news/ireland-has-more-than-2-5gw-of-grid-scale-battery-storage-in-development-stages/ - although it's from back in February.

TLDR: the first utility scale batteries in Ireland became operational in 2020 at Kilathmoy (11MW) and Lumcloon (100MW). A further 250MW is under construction and should become operational in 2021. Further along in the pipeline is 250MW with planning and a grid connection contract in place and about 1.5GW with planning only.

Even if it takes 5 or so years, 2.5GW of grid-scale storage will transform the Irish grid and will further extend the economic advantages of wind/solar generation. At this rate, the Irish grid could be nearly carbon free much sooner than was expected as long as further wind and solar capacity is continually added.

cnocbui · 10-09-2021 12:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871228#Comment_117871228

We just had around two weeks of windlessness with the daily renawbles generation of less than 5% of load, so absolute horse manure.

bk · 10-09-2021 1:18pm

"We just had around two weeks of windlessness with the daily renawbles generation of less than 5% of load, so absolute horse manure."

So what?

The goal for 2030 is 70% renewables. That means the other 30% can be gas plants running when the wind isn't blowing.

The point is to limit how often and how much we run those gas plants to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases.

If we had those storage and more interconnectors, we can run the gas plants even less.

cnocbui · 10-09-2021 1:24pm

The 'what' being that claims of net zero with wind and batteries is absolute wishful thinking nonsense.

josip · 10-09-2021 1:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117872176#Comment_117872176

Has someone claimed we have that at the moment?

cnocbui · 10-09-2021 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117872212#Comment_117872212

Try reading the relevant posts, 'now' in not the topic:

"At this rate, the Irish grid could be nearly carbon free much sooner than was expected as long as further wind and solar capacity is continually added."

bk · 10-09-2021 2:36pm

"Try reading the relevant posts, 'now' in not the topic:

"At this rate, the Irish grid could be nearly carbon free much sooner than was expected as long as further wind and solar capacity is continually added.""

Hold on cnocbui, you posted a graph of the energy mix as of today (and just today, not even the yearly mix which would look much better) in a reply to a post that is specifically talking about our future energy mix. By posting that graph, you are the one who made the topic about "now" by posting that.

Our goal for 2030 is 70% and net zero by 2050. gjim is right, the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if we hit the Net zero goal eariler, maybe 2045, even perhaps 2040 at a push might be possible if we really put the effort in. But that is in the future, you posting a graph of a single day in the whole of 2021 is highly disingenuous and has little to do with our future goals.

gjim · 10-09-2021 3:36pm

And cnocbui's graph is clearly selective to the point of being disingenuous. As of right now, eirgrid is reporting that renewables provided 14% of the last 24 hours of electricity, 12% of the last week and 19% of the last month. This despite the unprecedented weather. Everyone knows that wind is intermittent - and every reasonable person would expect the contribution from wind to fluctuate. There's no "aha gotcha" when you find a period with a low contribution - it's the average that matters.

Cnocbui, since every mention of further wind, solar or battery capacity is "clearly b*llsh*t" to you, could you describe what you think would be a better strategy for maintaining and expanding the electrical energy supply in Ireland?

Remember everyone from the Chinese, to the Americans, Europeans, Middle Eastern countries, etc. have already switched to committing to renewables - 90% of added global capacity last year was renewable and this is expected to continue. So you'll need pretty strong arguments to back up your alternative strategy given everyone else globally with skin in the game has decided that renewables are the future.

cnocbui · 10-09-2021 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117872704#Comment_117872704

The graph was from a couple of weeks ago and I never claimed it was today. The yearly figure is irrelevant, because no pile of batteries is ever going to get a country through a lull in the wind that lasts a couple of weeks or more, which is what you would need for net zero emissions annually. Ireland is not going to achive net zero emissions. You can make any target you like, but really it's just eco political correctness like the Chinese saying they aim to be a net zero CO2 economy by 2050. In reality, they are just saying that for the sake of optics and have not the slightest expectation or intention of achieving it.

Capt'n Midnight · 10-09-2021 7:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117873767#Comment_117873767

Adding 20% of hydrogen to the gas mains would reduce fossil fuel demand by about half the amount of gas used to generate electricity. That's a step change that requires no new technology. Using hydrogen instead of natural gas would further reduce the amount of carbon in electricity generation. The gas mains acts like a battery instead of a fossil fuel source. If you put as much hydrogen in for other gas users as you take gas out for electricity then it's nett zero.

BTW another reminder that Scotland got 97.4% electricity from renewables last year.

Saying batteries aren't the be all and end all is like saying solar panels don't work at night as it would only be a valid point if there weren't plenty of alternatives.

cnocbui · 10-09-2021 8:20pm

Scotland did not get 97.4% of it's energy from renewables, it's using Apple like accounting. They are using the excess wind power they exported to the UK, to offset the non renewable electricity they imported from the UK at the times when renewables and storage weren't sufficient.

I would have a nuclear reactor running at it's optimal output full time and some wind generation sufficient that the excess when converted to and stored as hydrogen, could cover the actual downtime of the reactor for maintenance. If hydrogen infrastructure and economics prove a goer, hydrogen produced from wind could even help decarbonise a lot of transport and home heating, which is the really big problem in my eyes as the cost of heat pumps for all is simply unaffordable and wholly impractical.

Watch out, the eco Taliban who have it in for the fossil fuel industry as a matter of principle don't like the idea of hydrogen replacing NG: https://theecologist.org/2020/nov/03/hydrogen-homes-terrible-idea

Here's that recent long lull in the wind we just had:

"Hot weather and low wind speeds are curbing renewable power production, boosting the use of fossil fuel-fired generation and pushing the price of coal up more than 70% in Europe this year. All of that sent the cost of polluting in Europe to the highest ever. "

The wholesale cost of electricity has risen 60% in Germany this year, because they have become as nuclear thick as Ireland. Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot. They should reverse their stupid decision to shut down the nuclear power plants.

The CO2 driven wheels are rapidly falling off the cart:

"While Europe has the most ambitious de-carbonisation plans in the world, unveiling proposals last month to cut emissions by at least 55% by 2030 from 1990 levels, some countries have started to balk at parts of the agenda.

France is lobbying behind the scenes to water down or delay the new proposed carbon market for heating and road transport. Several countries, including the Netherlands and Hungary, are also concerned about its social impact, according to European Union diplomats with knowledge of the talks.

In the U.K., there are questions about the cost of meeting net zero. It’s still unclear how the government intends to deliver on the targets, including convincing 600,000 people a year to rip out their gas boilers and replace them with expensive heat pumps.

...

Gas demand from power stations has been high due to lower than average wind speeds in Europe, curbing power generation from wind farms.

Analysts ICIS Energy said wind generation in Germany over the next two weeks is expected to average only 5 gigawatts (GW) a day compared to an average of over 10 GW for the three previous Septembers.

That is merely a tenth of the possible total.

"If there are periods again where wind generation drops, which is always the nature of wind, there will be high prices again," ICIS Energy analyst Roy Manuell said." https://energynow.ca/2021/08/europe-faces-an-energy-shock-after-gas-and-power-prices-rocket/

Barely a month or two and already they realise their sound-bite driven, peer pressured, eco political correctness ‘targets’ are a practical nonsense.

tom1ie · 10-09-2021 8:23pm

One things for sure.

If we want to hit 70% renewables by 2030 we have to streamline the planning process to get off shore, on shore and solar built plus the upgrading of the grid.

17-09-2021 4:36pm

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/plans-for-e100m-investment-at-tynagh-power-station-near-loughrea/?fbclid=IwAR33PskP2-eH2HC3Ghinb4_RgEN2-WFunWua77GD3QPJfW1JmwzAlY7cGOw

This will bring Tynagh from 400 to 700MW

Birdnuts · 17-09-2021 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117874076#Comment_117874076

What does that mean?? Bypassing EU directives on habitats ,birds, EIS, planning etc. for the benefit of big developers pocketing vast subsidies at the expensive of the rest of us?? This country has already received several ECJ court judgements against it for failures in this area when it comes to damaging windfarm developments. It appears some here are willing to turn a blind eye to such things in order to push a corporate Greenwash agenda.

Birdnuts · 17-09-2021 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117873032#Comment_117873032

Sorry but thats rubbish - saying the "averge that matters" is like saying the nameplate capacity on a wind turbine actually bares any relation to its usefull output, further highlighted by your statement about "90%" installed wind/solar capacity around the world(very little of which would b installed without heavy government subs). Again it shows those who push this greenwash model have no clue about what is needed for a reliable grid to operate or basic understanding of what the actual outputs of various forms of energy. I suggest you read the recent statement from Engineers Ireland about the performance of the Irish Grid recently to at least try and educate yourself in terms of these matters.

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