More Unpronounceable/Obscure Irish Names

I’ve a cousin called Cora, and weirdly I know another Cora, a rare name indeed it's pronunciation is as it’s written, Cora. The only two Cora’s I’ve known..

i used to go to an art class as a teenager with a fella called Carthage... never knew or heard of another Carthage before or in the 25 years since.

ive another female cousin first cousin called Danica...she was born in the US but lives here. Never encountered another person of that name, though everyone calls her Dani.

"Cartheach" doesn't look to me like an authentic Gaelic name; it violates the standard spelling rules. "A" is a broad vowel and "e" is a slender vowel, and you shouldn't have a broad vowel on one side of the -rth- consonant group and a slender vowel on the other; they should both be broad or both be slender.

"Cárthach", sometimes "Carthach", however, is a long-established name, though nowadays not that common. A saint of that name founded an abbey at Lismore; his name was rendered into Latin as "Carthagus", and, later on, from Latin into English as "Carthage". Both the Catholic and Church of Ireland cathedrals at Lismore are called St. Carthage's Cathedral, after Cárthach.

Cárthach is not pronounced "Cora". but something like "Core-hock" wouldn't be a thousand miles off.

How do you pronounce that?i

It rhymes with 'hive', so, 'Sive', or 'Syve'

"Órfhlaith" is legit, though would probably be regarded by most people as old-fashioned or regional.

Bit of background: Irish existed in a number of dialects, three of which survive - Ulster Irish, Munster Irish, Connacht Irish. We mostly think of these as different pronunciations, with some minor differences of vocabulary, but in fact they did have other differences, including some grammatical differences and different spelling conventions.

When Irish began to be used for official purposes in the 1920s, official documents might come out in any dialect of Irish. It was thought that this diversity was a barrier to the more widespread use of Irish, and that a common written form of the language ought to be developed. The result was the caighdeán ("standard"), a set of principles to govern written Irish used in the public service from the 1940s, and widely adopted for teaching Irish in the education system. All of the textbooks you remember from primary school were written using the caighdeán.

One of the principles adopted in the caighdeán was the elimination of silent letters. Lots of languages have silent letters, including English (knight, brought, salmon, sword). They can help in avoiding ambiguity (it's the silent letter that tells us whether an author is referring to jam or jamb, write or rite) and they often encode information that is an aid to understanding (the 'd' in handkerchief is silent, but it tells us that this is a kerchief for your hand). And they are usually a clue to the history or origins, and therefore the meaning, of a word - the 'p' in "psychology" takes us to Psyche, the Greek word for soul or spirit.

Silent letters are particularly troublesome in Irish because letters that are silent in one dialect might not be in another. The decision was taken to simplify spelling in the caighdeán by removing any letters which were silent in all three dialects of Irish. But if a letter is voiced in any dialect of Irish then the caighdeán retains it, even though to speakers of one or both of the other dialects it might be silent.

The 'fh' in "Orfhlaith" is not voiced in any dialect of Irish, so the caighdeán drops it. Why was it ever there? Because the root of "Órfhlaith" is "flaith", a prince or, in this case, princess; "Órfhlaith" means "golden princess".

But the caighdeán has less influence in Ulster, partly because "official" Irish has less traction in Ulster and partly because Ulster Irish is heavily influenced by Scots Gaelic, which has never had a similar reform. So a lot of pre-caighdeán spellings are still found in Ulster. Like Órfhlaith Begley, for example, the current Westminster MP for West Tyrone.

Off-topic: Myles na gCopaleen (Brian O'Nolan/Flann O'Brien) used to have fun with that the odd time by writing pieces for his column that looked like Irish and if you pronounced it as Irish, they were actually English sentences. (English, in phonetic Irish.) 😀 I think he did it the other way around too. He was some man for the wordplay!

And a quote from the man "If Irish were to die completely, the standard of English here, both in the spoken and written word, would sink to a level probably as low as that obtaining in England and it would stop there only because it could go no lower.".

Well that told me. Fair play Peregrinus! I stand very much corrected and schooled.

My 3 kids have Irish names, one being Sadhbh which is probably the most difficult.

I have a cousin who lives in Germany and called one of her children Lasairfhíona (pronounced Lah-sah-reena), which is obscure and unpronounceable in Ireland, let alone Germany. It's a lovely name, though.

And you don’t have the Germans worrying if the Irish or anyone else will be able to pronounce their local names.

I've never heard that pronunciation before but it sounds a bit like the proper way of saying but with a Nordie accent. Is he from Ulster?

You can never make any assumptions with these names until you hear them from the mouth of the person themselves. Máire is a good example - you might assume something like Moy-ra, until the insulted woman tells you no - it's Moi-ya. All to do with regional variation but confusing even for people who were born and lived in Ireland all their lives.

I think regional variation and dialect is great and would put a big black inky mark on the institutional Gaelgeoirs who've tried to standardise and bastardise the language with their official forms.

It's one thing having a traditional Irish name, but another thing entirely to take a traditional Irish name, chuck an extra vowel or 2 in there and act like it's normal.

I work in a call centre at the weekends and the number of bizarre variations I see on a daily basis is ridiculous. Caoimhe is a regular one on the butcher's block.

Caoimhae

Caoeimhe

Kaoimhe (damn you Kardashians)

All versions that I've seen lately. It's a trend, and not limited to Irish names. People think that they're being cool and different by spelling their kid's name wrong. And then they get arsey with you for not knowing the completely daft and incorrect way they've chosen to spell their little turd...

Every boy should be called Chesney and every girl should be called Chardonnay

The tidied up the old spellings and modernised Irish in the early 60s I believe and did away with a lot of formerly superfluous letters. Older variants of Orla would have been part of that just like Dúill (Doyle) is the more modern spelling of Dubhghaill, an example that shows why they did it!

Knew one of those at school - Malachy! The trick, like all of them, is break it up into syllables Maol-sheach-lann.

Is that name Katelynn (2 syllables) an Americanisation of Caitlin? I had a school friend called Cáit and we said Cawtch, but Caitlín was Kathleen.

Giving Your child obscure unpronounceable Irish names is up there with Shanona, Aquafeel, Klee’opatraa, even Debra is Ugh!

How many of ye would be moaning about someone with the name Chevonne rather than Siobhán?

Is it just when the spelling is different, but still quickly identifiable as Irish that annoys ye?

Well she’s the only Danica I know, or have ever known.... :)

So Chevonne is ok (I have actually met one who had no Irish connection)

How about Shivaune? I have never met one of those but it is also used. Or is only one of those allowed?

I wouldn’t forgive an Irish parent for calling their darling Chevonne. Pretentious attention seeking dope.

if you really want the attention call them a real name from another country, like Delphine, Anais, Chiara having fun saying no, it’s not like the Irish Ciara, Ingebord, Amira, or really push the boat out with Nabila, Gulya, Xiuying, Kaito, I’m on a roll here, Kirana, Ndari, Itong, Ha-joon,