Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

reslfj · 19-09-2021 1:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909403#Comment_117909403

I'm sure the banks and the BoE had long wanted decimal money, as computers could at the time only handle lsd money with great difficulty and using many resources. Writing lsd calculation were (and are) difficult to both program and test.

Most UK industries were highly interested in using the MKSA (and later the SI) system, where all physical units are in decimal notation and are directly connected by the laws of physics. The MKSA/SI system is based on a few basic units - the metre, the kg, the second and the Ampere for electrical current (all recently changed to use even more basic physical units as definition).

Keeping their international competitiveness were key here both for banks and for industry. This had broad support in HMG and among politicians at least in the 1960's and beyond.

Lars 😀

It's not just spaceflights that has been dangerously affected of conversion errors.

Film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_from_the_Sky:_Flight_174

Real accident:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snVifFDoAG8

joeysoap · 19-09-2021 2:04am

It’s obviously easier to use metric units than imperial etc but I have noticed that 2nd hand cars dealers always use miles. Wheel sizes are interesting as most people use both ie 205x60x15. Also McDonalds use ‘quarter pounders’ etc to describe their hamburgers ( most of which are Irish ) . Newborn Babies are described lbs and ozs.

I think we can live with both as currently used in Ireland ie pints for drinks and litres for milk.

Nb I live in a border area and drive an import with no problems

Capt'n Midnight · 19-09-2021 2:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907061#Comment_117907061

It's got to the stage that TheRegister has a nice online unit converter https://www.theregister.com/Design/page/reg-standards-converter.html so you can compare football pitches to 'an area the size of Wales'

An Osman is Richard's height obviously and a DUP is a financial measure.

BTW a Barrel of Oil is 42 US gallons. And one US gallon is 3 x 7 x 11 inches 'cos prime numbers are... Go figure.

Horse racing also uses guineas and hands. And a pint of plain is yer only man.

Seriously any exports with measures will need local units. You can't use UK volume units for the USA, tons are also different.

RobMc59 · 19-09-2021 8:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909941#Comment_117909941

The US W&M system has always been odd, their use of inches for car engine size for example.

In addition to UK cars having MPH speedometers,the spec is sometimes different to Irish registered cars.

Sam Russell · 19-09-2021 8:47am

I remember reading a Scientific American article where they referred to the temperature of (I think) the sun where the temperature was given as 'several million degrees (Fahrenheit)' which any student could convert in a moment as 'several million degrees (Celsius)' or even 'several million degrees (Centigrade)'.

In everyday life, it matters not to most whether the beer is measured in pints or litres as long as it is freely available, there is plenty of it, and it is cheap or better free.

19-09-2021 8:54am

The point of standard units of measurement, apart from the metric system just being much easier to work with, is about open markets and trade. Weird units and labelling requirements are basically a barrier to trade within the single market and may cause confusion or problems.

The metric system is basically a product of enlightenment thinking, where there was a concept that systems like this should be logical, rational and most importantly accessible. A bunch of illogical traditional units doesn’t lend itself to a world where the average person can expect to be able to manipulate units or do calculations. It ends up making something that should be very simple inaccessible to many.

The adoption of SI (metric) units in the U.K. predates the EU by a long time. Also every other member of the Commonwealth uses them. The likes of Canada, Australia and NZ moved moved to metric decades ago without any fuss.

This is all just a load of symbolic, nostalgic nonsense. It’s basically about grabbing anything that differentiates Britain from other countries, highlighting it, obsessing about it and the sad reality is that many of these things are just boring technicalities.

An aspect of Brexit seems to be more about an attempt at time travel and isolationism, while saying “global Britain” and accusing the large EU trading bloc, which is probably the origin of most of the world's open standards, of protectionism.

There isn't any logic to much of this, other than its petty, symbolic nationalism.

ancapailldorcha · 19-09-2021 9:28am

I have to say that while I was always sure that people here would understand that shortages would be Brexit-related, it does seem to have been recognised astonishingly quickly. I'm hoping that stories like this create political room for some form of customs union with the EU.

https://twitter.com/RemainerNow/status/1439501831214878724

yagan · 19-09-2021 9:33am

Had to pop over to England for a couple of days to tie up some loose ends from when we lived there. Arriving in Holyhead, zero checks although there was a customs shed with a few staff but no sign of anyone being checked. I have observed many times on that route that cars with non-white occupants seemed to get checked more than others.

Leaving Britain there were actually boot checks at Holyhead, although we were passed over. Arriving in Dublin port for the first time since Brexit was a sharp reminder of what's changed. Customs and covid cert checks at two separate booths.

Mask compliance in England in shops seemed to be about 20%, whereas anywhere we stopped in Wales it was definitely over 70%.

It was the quietest ferry crossing in all my years using that route.

Edit to add, can't really comment on empty shelves as we only popped into shops for the sandwich/snacks near to the checkouts and exits.

RobMc59 · 19-09-2021 10:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910216#Comment_117910216

It took me a while to realise just how untrustworthy the tories actually are.It's obvious brexit isn't working yet they persist in the line we're better off which is clearly not the case.

I've also noticed work mates who were all on favour of brexit, moaning about new travel rules and moving to Spain for example.Pointing out the absurdity of what they voted for is beginning to sink in.

19-09-2021 11:14am

It’s genuinely sad to see the way things are going. A lot of very positive aspects of British society have just been undone and completely undermined.

I mean if you look at what they’re doing, it’s all about keeping the focus on populist nationalism, most of which is about a theatre of nonsense like the reintroduction of imperial weights and measures or manufactured tabloid sausage crises etc etc while they’re busily dismantling so many of the things that built modern Britain as a progressive society and those are the very same progressive ideas and attitudes that were foundational to the progress made in Northern Ireland and in bringing Irish-British relates to a golden age in the 90s and early 2000s. They weren’t just about one party vs the other either. They were being broadly adopted by society.

I had great times in London, Manchester and plenty of other parts of England and I’ve been very happy to see Northern Ireland progress to being a peaceful, forward looking place.

All I see now is everything being cynically undone by people who seem to want to live in a world of tabloid headlines and flag waving jingoism. They’re wrecking and undermining so much of the social cohesion and systems that built and defined modern Britain.

It’s been things like the comprehensive schools that they spend so much time maligning, the access to university, the NHS, the BBC and Channels 4 being seriously independent and impressive broadcasters and the breakdown of the rigid class system that has been what made it the vibrant place it became.

All I see is a bunch of upper class twits trying to bring the U.K. back to Edwardian or even Victorian time or aping the worst of US values.

The whole thing is just depressing to watch and I think too many are caught up in the distractions of the petty fights and arguments that are designed very deliberately to distract, as the guy doing a bad impression of a Winston Churchill caricature just places dead cat after dead cat on the table until that’s all anyone can see.

Akrasia · 19-09-2021 11:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910216#Comment_117910216

The daily mail should be reminded of stories like these https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3522117/amp/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-public-seeing-Project-Fear.html

every time they complain about Brexit impacts. The Daily mail were instrumental in causing Brexit

silverharp · 19-09-2021 11:19am

I popped into M&S in Blackrock yesterday, no gotchas, store was full and no obvious stuff missing. Still wouldnt shop there though, buying milk from the UK in Dublin is a little beyond the pale.

ArmaniJeanss · 19-09-2021 11:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909594#Comment_117909594

There was definitely a time (from say the 1990s to the late 2000s) when the EU did have a problem with the UK retaining imperial. Displaying both metric and imperial in parallel on packaging was a temporary concession - the plan was that eventually this concession would expire and there would be only metric packaging by 2009. The Commission gave up in the end, as per the below Guardian link from 2007. Though it could be argued that the mere fact it was ever an issue/demand was one of those small things that enabled and emboldened Euroscepticism and led us to where we are now.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/11/eu.politics

ancapailldorcha · 19-09-2021 11:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910376#Comment_117910376

My experience is that the facade of Brexit making the UK better off has been tacitly jettisoned. Nobody is even pretending any more. If there are supply issues with Christmas, that's going to be a hideous look for this government after last year when they left it until the last possible minute to update the public and implement new restrictions.

They're not even conservative. Conservatism is supposed to be about not rocking the boat and both the Tories and the DUP have torpedoed themselves over this for no real gain beyond a few short term election wins.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910460#Comment_117910460

I know. My point is that one of the largest and most vocal cheerleaders driving this fiasco is now being critical. This is important if the narrative here is to change.

O'Neill · 19-09-2021 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910456#Comment_117910456

What's even worse is that there's no proper opposition party. Labour are in a absolute mess at the minuite (constant infighting, members and mps being 'wrongly' investigated and sent letters but end up being rescinded due to an 'admin error' 🙄). Kate Green's appearance on QT this week just summed it up, utterly hopeless.

Strazdas · 19-09-2021 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910216#Comment_117910216

It's very difficult to conceal that Brexit is going completely pear shaped. Where are all the big 'wins' and benefits to people's everyday lives? All Johnson has to fall back on is flags and symbols and passport covers and tiny trade deals with countries 10,000 miles away.

Strazdas · 19-09-2021 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910456#Comment_117910456

You can easily tell that Britain is not a republic. Would the Brexit toffs and millionaires / billionaires be even tolerated in any other country in Europe carrying on the same way? It seems very unlikely.

ancapailldorcha · 19-09-2021 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910784#Comment_117910784

Brexit was never about securing benefits for anyone who isn't an oligarch.

Strazdas · 19-09-2021 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117911661#Comment_117911661

I think that is slowly starting to dawn on people. It's been about enriching Brexit toffs, offshore billionaires and Tory donors (with the millions of plebs who voted for it becoming collateral damage).

dublin49 · 19-09-2021 7:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117911821#Comment_117911821

nah.Brexit will always be portrayed as a noteworthy national aspiration,its failure will be explained away an an example of European treachery actually further justifying the UK's need to assert its independence.Although if and when Murdoch dies and his successor takes a different view who knows.

lawred2 · 19-09-2021 8:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117911821#Comment_117911821

Urm it's not like they weren't told that this was the case. I'm not sure that they care.

ancapailldorcha · 19-09-2021 8:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117911821#Comment_117911821

I wouldn't quite put it that way. It was fine when Brexit was hammering certain demographics such as artists, younger folk and the like. In this respect, it was like a horror show for the sort of southern, middle-class Butlins-frequenting types who put their own cultural peccadilloes ahead of the welfare of the nation. Once it started affecting them, the narrative changed and sharply at that.

murphaph · 21-09-2021 7:42am

Is there any possible particular implications for NI and its place in the single market for goods if retailers there start selling stuff in imperial only?

Seth Brundle · 21-09-2021 7:51am

I think it's not going to happen regardless. If anything, products might display dual measurements but whilst the Tories think it might be a good idea (or rather a good distraction), businesses will stick with metric so that they can trade with other countries (not just the EU).

Metric is also easier for their staff production systems, IT systems and so on so imperial will never make a successful comeback.

Any NI business that decides to deal in imperial only won't last long.

murphaph · 21-09-2021 8:09am

Imperial weight measurements certainly favour the retailer using them as it looks like you are getting more for your money when compared to the metric retailer next door. The "rough" conversion of dividing the imperial lbs weight in half to get kg favours the imperial retailer when doing rough comparisons between prices where retailers use different systems so unfortunately I can see the "cancer" spread once one major retailer adopts it in advertising material.

Example:

Bananas 50p per lb

Bananas 100p per kg

Looks the "same" when doing the rough calculation that the average shopper will do but the metric retailer has to give you 2.2lbs for your 100p. The imperial retailer only has to give you 2lbs.

Peregrinus · 21-09-2021 8:14am

The imperial measurements thing is just a bit of silliness designed to gratify the blue passports shower and distract media attention from the dimensions of Brexit that actually matter. Nobody expects any significant volume of transactions in imperial measurements. If they did, the government would need to have plans to re-equip and retrain the weights and measures inspectorate to work with imperial measurements, make arrangements for replacing the testing equipment for imperial measures that was junked years ago, etc, etc. None of this is happening, and the people who pretend to be delighted about the reintroduction of imperial measures don’t care that none of it is happening because they know it won’t be needed. Manufacturers are not going to retool their production or packaging lines to complicate their own lives and produce lines that they cannot export. A few grocers will sell loose strawberries by the pound; consumers will be mildly disadvantaged because it’s not immediately apparent whether the strawberries in this shop at £8.34/kg represent better or worse value than the strawberries in that shop at £3.78/lb; and that’s about it.

Some of those grocers may be in NI, but it won’t be a problem. Loose fruit, etc, sold by retail in NI is not going to circulate widely in the rest of the Single Market.

21-09-2021 8:26am

They still have quite a few items in the UK that aren't metric, particularly things like milk, which is still often 2 pints or 4 pints for example.

They've been far, far slower to adopt metric units largely due to nostalgia.

https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/254656543

Only place I've ever seen that in Ireland is M&S which often sold British milk instead of Irish milk as they're basically not into localising anything.

All that happens is you get a mix of litres and pints and it makes price comparison confusing and less obvious when like for like items aren't in the same unit.

They do it here though too:

https://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/Details/?id=308096702

storker · 21-09-2021 9:17am

Speaking of Tesco, on Sunday the pasta shelves were empty of Roma and Tesco own-brand pasta, with only the significantly more expensive boxes of Barilla pasta strategically arranged to minimise the empty look. I put this down to weekend demand that would be put right with Monday's delivery, but last night those shelves were the same as before. Is this a consequence of Brexit, COVID or something else?

murphaph · 21-09-2021 9:17am

Even on the continent you often see "oddball" metric weights that used to be something else. 454g tins of stuff is not uncommon. It's absolutely fine though because the retailer is obliged in any case to show the price per kg alongside so a direct a and fair comparison is always possible.

I don't expect any manufacturers in the UK will change a single thing in their production or distribution lines but manufacturers don't sell directly to consumers normally. The retailers will use whatever units of measurement they can get away with to make their stuff look as cheap as possible. I disagree that it will stop at loose fruit and veg. There would be nothing stopping say Sainsbury's from "being patriotic" and displaying everything (advantageous to them) in imperial.

Just because Sainsbury's buys x in kg from their supplier, it doesn't oblige them to display the price to the consumer this way. At least that's what I would expect from the Tories.

ancapailldorcha · 21-09-2021 12:19pm

Off topic posts deleted.

Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Comments