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Lease renewal with rent increase without proper notice

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    #32
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912355#Comment_117912355

    Providing the tenant gave notice they were intending on staying which they did not. I own multiple properties and have dealt with similar issues many times before. Hence why now I only do corporate short stay leases. How many properties and experience do you have Sarn? Just curious as to where you draw on your expertise in this matter. I would be interested to see exactly where the part 4 overrides the fixed term lease as they currently run side by side. And as no notice was given that the tenant was staying past the fixed term date no rent review would have been required as the landlord/agent would have been correct in assuming the tenant was vacating at end of fixed term.



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    #33
    Sarn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,076 ✭✭✭Sarn


    The tenant is still within the first year of their Part IV tenancy. A new lease does not reset the clock.



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    #34
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912392#Comment_117912392

    That would be great if they were trying to evict the tenant which they are not. And now I notice a few threads up the OP even said they verbally discussed the increase with them previously. At the end of they day the part 4 is not in question and no eviction is sought. The matter of the fixed term lease is though, and as required by law and here it is one more time for you to read.

    If you have a fixed-term contract or lease and you want to remain in the property under the rights acquired under Part 4, you must notify your landlord of your intention to stay in the property. You must do this between 3 months and 1 month before your fixed–term tenancy or lease agreement expires.

    That is the underlying issue and as the tenant did not do this the are entitled to past rent due end of story. Nothing to do with rent reviews/ part 4 etc etc.

    The terms of the fixed term lease are clear and concise.



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    #35
    Sarn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,076 ✭✭✭Sarn


    To add, for a further Part IV tenancy a tenant is not required to notify the LL. The obligation is on the LL to serve a notice of termination within the first six months of the further Part IV tenancy.



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    #36
    helldesign
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭helldesign


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912426#Comment_117912426

    "they verbally discussed the increase with them previously"

    That was 2020, before signing the previous lease. This year we haven't discussed anything, verbally or written.



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    #37
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912429#Comment_117912429

    One last time before i give up and go and bang my head against the wall. NO ONE IS TRYING TO EVICT THE TENANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And yes now the the part 4 has started its 2nd cycle in the future in the ABSENCE of a fix term lease the tenant would require 90 days notice.



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    #38
    Sarn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,076 ✭✭✭Sarn


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912464#Comment_117912464

    There is no requirement on the tenant to notify the LL of a further Part IV therefore there is no financial loss. Even if you were correct, as I have highlighted, the further Part IV begins when the first Part IV tenancy ended in November 2020. There would still be time to request a further Part IV (although not required). A lease cannot be used to circumvent the tenant’s rights.



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    #39
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912458#Comment_117912458

    I'm not trying to be rude or mean. But you should have been aware of what a fixed term lease meant prior to signing it. Yes you have rights but so do the landlords/agents. You did not inform them of your intention to stay past the expiry of the fixed term lease as required by law, you are protected from eviction under your part 4 so don't worry about being evicted. It is also bad form of the agent in question to have not followed this up sooner with you. Have a talk to them, if you intend of staying in the place inform them of that now. Ask for a half way point if you can afford the new increase and agree to pay the increase from a set date in the near future and to forget about the past rent due they are seeking to keep the peace between both parties. I have no idea how much rent you pay but we are only talking a few hundred euros at most I presume wouldn't it be better to have a working relationship with the agent going forward. And yes I agree with you they were bad at not informing you earlier but equally with you not informing them that your intention is to stay. In addition going forward from the 16th July 2021 the 4% rule no longer applies and rents in an RPZ zone can now only be increased in accordance with inflation rates. That means if inflation is 1.7% that's all it can be increased in accordance with current market rates.

    Personally I would not sign a further lease and inform the agent of your intention to stay under Part 4. That will ensure any future rent increases will require at least 90 days notice.



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    #40
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912481#Comment_117912481

    All rent increases require 90 days notice, and must be written. It not clear to me, or anyone else what bearing fixed term/part 4 cycle regulations have on that requirement, nor why you brought that up.



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    #41
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912630#Comment_117912630

    Ok last post before i head off for the evening. A fixed term lease means the tenant moves out at the end of the fixed term lease unless they inform the landlord/agent of their intention to stay past the fixed term lease. If they fail to inform the landlord/agent of that intention there is no need to issue a rent increase as that would be covered in any new lease with new tenants. A requirement under fixed term leases is that the tenant informs the landlord/ agent between 1 to 3 months before ending of said fixed term lease. A fixed term lease does not circumvent a part4 agreement in any way shape or form.

    So if the agent/landlord have not been informed as required by law why would they need to issue a rent increase?

    Under fixed term leases landlords are entitled to any losses they incur after expiry of fixed term within reasonable grounds.

    Yes going forward the tenant now has rights under part 4 but so does the landlord.



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    #42
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912674#Comment_117912674

    Your interpretation of this is utterly wrong. A fixed term lease does not alter tenants rights under the RTA, nor LLs obligations in relation to rent reviews.

    Fixed term leases do offer some benefits to both tenants and LLs, for instance the LL cannot terminate the tenancy for the reasons laid out in the RTA during the fixed term, but on the other hand, the tenant is responsible for the rent until the end of the term unless they assign their interest in it. Why fixed term leases are used anymore is beyond me.

    A fixed term lease most certainly does not mean the tenant moves out at the end of the term, after 6 months the tenant gets part 4 rights and can stay as long as they want unless the tenancy is ended in a legal manner by the LL as set out in the RTA.

    Irrespective of whether a fixed term agreement exists are not, the rules on rent reviews are clear, reviews must be in writing and give 90 days notice, neither of which occurred in the op’s case. A landlord cannot claim a loss on foot of an invalid rent review, if the review was not valid, there is no loss.

    I’m really struggling to see what the part 4 cycle has to do with your interpretation, if you think it was a 4 yr cycle, it ended in November 2020, as this in September and the op still hasn’t received a written notice of rent review not termination, that ship has sailed, or do you think it is a 6 yr cycle which would not end until November 2022? Which ever way you are interpreting it, you are wrong to state that it lessens the requirement for the landlord to provide the op with a valid, legal rent review.

    https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/types-of-tenancies-and-agreements/fixed-term-tenancy?gclid=Cj0KCQjwv5uKBhD6ARIsAGv9a-yUgoHLAie_Y-9TWPUOYRjRGu4eFDM4IyylrOcd2idQNTJ5TXHezyEaAlO6EALw_wcB


    Post edited by Dav010 on


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    #43
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912795#Comment_117912795

    If you have a fixed-term contract or lease and wish to remain in the property under the rights acquired under Part 4, you must notify your landlord of your intention to stay in the property, not more than 3 months and not less than 1 month, before the expiry of your fixed-term tenancy or lease agreement. If you fail to do so, you do not lose your right to a ‘Part 4 Tenancy’ but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss incurred because you did not notify them of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

    The RTA is quite clear on that as above. We have different interpretations fair enough, I have been there before. The RTB doesn't write law only interprets the law as written and pass decisions based on law. I have now posted that summary 3 times, don't believe me go ask your own legal representative then.



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    #44
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913171#Comment_117913171

    Again, the LL cannot claim a loss of rent on foot of an invalid rent review. What financial loss are you referring to?



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    #45
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913241#Comment_117913241

    If the LL/agent were not aware of the tenant staying past the end of the fixed term contract why would they have to issue a rent review to a tenant not staying on past due date? Hence why the onus falls on the tenant to inform them of their decision to claim part 4 rights at the end of the fixed term between 1 to 3 months before conclusion of said fixed term contract. Either way we are not going to convince either of us to change our minds, I have my interpretation and you have yours. Lets just agree to disagree.



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    #46
    helldesign
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭helldesign


    Let's also not forget that the increase on the new lease is 4% which I think is more than the current inflation.



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    #47
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913171#Comment_117913171

    If the tenancy started in Nov2016 and the initial Part4 ended in Oct2020, a further Part4 would have kicked in immediately. Afaik, the tenancy agreement would continue as the house was obviously sold with the tenant in situ.

    The new owner may have been entitled to issue a rent review in July2020 if it was 12 months since the last one or whatever the rules were during covid but is it legal to issue a new fixed term lease in the middle of a Further Part4 agreement?



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    #48
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117912429#Comment_117912429

    I thought it had to be served before the Further Part4 starts?

    Otherwise, if the Further Part4 starts and the landlord has not prevented it, then surely the tenancy is for a further six year term - unless there is a termination on some other ground.

    Post edited by mrslancaster on


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    #49
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,498 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    Just an added query to this if I may:


    Fixed term tenancy finishes. No notification from tenant or LL about staying on. Tenant stays on. 9 months later, the LL now requests a new 12 month lease.

    Is the tenant obliged to sign the new lease? Does the tenant still have part 4 rights, even if no notice of such was given, as it's now 9 months since the fixed term ended without any communication from either party.



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    #50
    circular flexing
    Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭circular flexing


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913298#Comment_117913298


    I don't know where you are getting your information from but RTB site is pretty clear about fixed term leases

    https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/types-of-tenancies-and-agreements/fixed-term-tenancy


    "A ‘Part 4’ tenancy runs alongside a fixed term tenancy, which means the tenant shall, after a period of 6 months and as in the normal course, become entitled to the provisions of a ‘Part 4’ tenancy (i.e. they can stay in the property for 4 or 6 years*)."

    Nothing mentioned there about need to claim Part 4 rights, they are granted by default.



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    #51
    circular flexing
    Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭circular flexing


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913464#Comment_117913464

    Tenant is not obliged to sign the lease, as per RTB, Part 4 rights are granted after 6 months by default.



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    #52
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913298#Comment_117913298

    The op has been there for over 4 yrs, and as such, is required to give he LL 85 days notice to end the tenancy. Of course this was never given. Why then after almost 5 yrs would a LL be assuming a tenant would leave at the end of a 12 month FTC?

    Unless I have missed it, the op has not made reference to either LL or tenant assuming, as you do, that a tenancy ends at the end of a fixed term. If the LL did assume that, I would expect that they would have visited the property the day after expiration of the term to ensure the op had left, there is no mention of this from the op, nor indeed any correspondence to indicate the LL thinks the same as you in relation to fixed term leases.

    Part 4 rights are automatically gained after 6 months, there is no need for the tenant to “claim” them, and again, unless a rent review is valid, there is no rent increase, hence no back dated rent owed.

    Until the op receives a valid, written rent review, with any increase in the correct amount, all he/she should do is reply to the email stating that the review is not valid.

    Post edited by Dav010 on


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    #53
    helldesign
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭helldesign


    Thank you all for your help.


    Just to make sure, is the current HICP exactly 3%?



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    #54
    Deub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭Deub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913171#Comment_117913171

    The OP received a letter for rent increase. They didn’t say that the agency/owner requested a compensation.



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    #55
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    People the RTB do not make the laws. The law is covered under the Residential Tenancies Act. I suggest people refer to the act and stop using RTB site as a reference point.

    And everything I have mentioned is covered under the Residential Tenancies Act, how the RTB chooses to interpret that information is their doing. Any half decent legal professional will bring these matters up in any RTB case.



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    #56
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915633#Comment_117915633

    The legislation relating to rent reviews contained in the RTA is clear and unambiguous, the requirements stated on the RTB tally precisely with that legislation.

    Considering the op received it by email, with no 90 day notice, and the wrong amount apparently, I suspect even the most talented solicitor would struggle to convince the RTB of its validity.



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    #57
    helldesign
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭helldesign


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913736#Comment_117913736

    It was a text message (SMS), sort of "we are awaiting your signature on your new lease, which is now over due". No mention about increase.

    I found about the increase opening the new lease, which wasn't sent to me initially as they claimed, so they had to re-send it.



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    #58
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913171#Comment_117913171

    Do you mean that a landlord would be at a loss because any new tenant who moved in immediately after the FTL ended could be charged the previous rent plus the % increase increase allowed after 12 months, whereas, if the existing tenant stayed, then the landlord needs to issue a 90 day rent notice so he loses the rent increase for those 90 days?

    Would the original tenant have to pay the landlord that uplift for the 90 days if they didn't notify the landlord?



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    #59
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117915848#Comment_117915848

    That would be great if we were talking about a rent review. The primary issue here is the tenant signed a FIXED TERM LEASE without understanding what it meant under the RTA. They are called a fixed term lease for a reason. Now if the RTB wants to publish some vague shite on their website to fill tenants full of false hope that's fine. For the last time as STATED under the RTA, the tenant must notify the landord/agent of their intention to stay after the expiry of the fixed term lease between 1 to 3 months before expiry of said lease. This is the underlying issue and why the new owners of the apartment issued a fixed term lease in the 1st place. If the RTB becomes involved the 1st issue the will have to deal with is the FIXED TERM LEASE, only then may other matters be addressed. And as the tenant knowingly signed a fix term lease that would pretty much be the end of all further matters as they would become null and void. Now by all means talk more shite about this and that and rent reviews etc etc etc and how the RTB is a demi god and never wrong......READ THE FULL RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004 Because that is where it is written into law, not some vague summary shite RTB post on their site. Anyway enough of trying to help OP, as I said I have dealt with this before and own multiple properties. I told you what I would recommend quite a few posts ago, make what you will of that. Good Luck



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    #60
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916650#Comment_117916650

    What we are posting about is an invalid rent review, it’s as simple as that. If you take the time to read the legislation relating to part 4 tenancies and rent reviews, that should help.



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    #61
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916666#Comment_117916666

    Which the RTB could deal with after they deal with the preceding matter of the fixed term lease. When that matter has been dealt then other matters can be addressed. Matters are dealt with in order of occurrence not in any other way.



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