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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    If my missus asks me to pick up a Daily Maily from the newsagents

    I have to buy a few porn mags in which to hide it.

    When she says " what did buy that filth for?"

    I say "you asked me to".



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Thats sexist crap, plenty of men are subvervient & dominated by a female partners in this country too. You just dont hear much about it because its a shameful thing for a man to admit this to anyone. No doubt they are finished, Jules Thomas doesnt strike me as a very subservient type of individual. She raised three young girls pretty much on her own, came to West Cork on her own and created a life for herself, could have left or kicked Bailey out over a period of 25 years but stood by him in his fight against the newspapers & then the state enduring plenty of abuse. She's an extremely strong character, stronger than Bailey imo because she doesnt have any addiction issues and is a realist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    If true... And I have my reservations..

    Why would a person making a short trip to Ireland, bring three years worth of diaries with them..??

    A bit bizarre isn't it?

    In the unlikely event that it is true, why would somebody remove them from the cottage?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    This is are all good points which gave me the opinion that Shirley knew a lot more than she admitted.

    Alfie and Shirley not hearing any noises at night, is something which bothered me also a lot, but I always tried to explain it that the killer may have hit Sophie with a rock totally unexpected from behind. She never knew what was coming and most likely trusted the killer and knew him well.

    Also, did the police never investigate Alfie for growing drugs on his land? Did they know about this? Or where do we have that information from that Alfie was growing drugs on his land? They arrested that farmer Bolger but never Alfie? Why?

    Sophie's blood was found on the gates as well as near the door handle of the door to her house. So if she was injured there, but died on the side of the road, how did she get there? And not be screaming for her life? Or was the blood stain near the door handle caused by the killer, as he was full of blood, trying to maybe wash it off in the sink in Sophie's house? And if the killer did wash his hands in the sink of Sophie's house, he probably had a good look around, looking for diaries, maybe wiping his fingerprints off somehow?

    Lot's of questions here.....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Agree. Nothing justifies the violence against Jules, absolutely nothing.

    However women can ALSO be abusive in relationships, mentally, emotionally, financially, even physically and sexually but due to the likely hood of men being physically stronger, its less common.

    I'm not victim blaming whatsoever, but I will say nobody knows what went on in that relationship except the 2 of them.

    More and more men are coming forward nowadays to report domestic abuse in its various forms.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Its clear she liked reading, she liked being on her own, I think she planned a longer stay initially. I dont think bringing three diaries is that strange, maybe she wanted to review her last three years in the comfort of her isolated surroundings in West Cork. We know she liked her own company & liked reading. I don't think its a crazy stretch to think she would have brought some diaries.

    I dont think the murderer removed them as he would have had to have looked for them while probably being soaked in blood and leaving ample DNA/fingerprint evidence everywhere. The real question is why did the most likely remove them, probably destroy them and not account for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,422 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Interesting point about three years worth of diaries...

    I presume someone might remove the diaries if they knew Sophie kept a diary and thought they might be named in them - and there is no other link to that person eg letters, traceable phone numbers, sightings by other people.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    I dont agree with the theory that she was hit once fatally initially and was quite afterwards as the scene was one of where she fought back and fought particularly hard. Clumps of hair in her hands, bruises and marks on hands and under her fingernails .

    I think they did know, Alfie lyons himself was arrested for it & Leo Bolger subsequently, both got off with extremely light sentences because no doubt they were helping the gards with their investigation into painting Bailey as the murderer.

    The blood stain on the door handle came from the killer imo, I believe the killer initially finished STDP then went back to the house with Sophies blood on his hands/knuckles. She could have got to the gate for a multitude of reasons, most likely one trying to flee the killer. She was screaming for her life no doubt, thats why its strange the neighbours didnt hear a thing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    If it was as you described, and Alfie and Shirley didn't hear anything, or stated that they didn't hear anything, then why didn't they come forward with what they've heard in the night? Because they were in it too? Or because Alfie did it himself? ( or had orders from the drug ring, to do it....)

    And I could hardly imagine Ian Bailey killing Sophie, Sophie shouting loudly, and Alfie and Shirley denying that they heard anything? If it was Bailey and Alfie and Shirley heard Sophie, they would have come and try to rescue her? one would imagine....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why would a person making a short trip to Ireland, bring three years worth of diaries with them..

    If there were very personal or sensitive information in the diaries then I could see how a person would want them with them rather than leave them behind. They may not have been particularly bulky either.

    I think the idea is that the diaries would contain information relevant to the murder. That could be information about her state of affairs with Daniel or of her meeting with a man on her current trip. So the implication is that the killer removed them or else the Gaurds removed them to cover up a link to one of their own.

    That's if they actually ever existed of course.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    They might have been stoned out of their brains and out for the count. They or Alfie on his own may have seen a local gard commit the crime & he didnt want to involve him & his missus in it for fear of a long stretch in prison for Alfie because of him being involved in drugs. An associate or someone Alfie knew may have committed the crime who was well known to him & was a good customer & decided to cover for him? Who knows.

    I do understand that windows are normally all closed in the middle of winter and in the countryside, it may be difficult to hear any noise when you do that. But I can only imagine how much she must have been screaming.

    Im not saying they definitely heard something, im saying its unusual they didnt hear something like this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    I believe it was in the report of Garda Gerard Prendeville, who conducted the initial interview with AL.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Massive Berevement


    How could there not have been fingerprints on the gate?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "I dont think bringing three diaries is that strange, maybe she wanted to review her last three years in the comfort of her isolated surroundings in West Cork".

    One of them would have been blank.

    Edited to add;

    I suppose it could contain future appointments.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭dublin49


    case proven at last,if you confess to a murder you obviously didnt do it,if you don't hide suspicious marks after a violent crime your definitely innocent,and you didnt even mention that having battered Jules several times he would be mad to be violent again because hes no fool,



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    This argument of why they should have disposed of the gate is ridiculous. Yes, this is a gate but this is the state & the gards were talking about here. You dont think they didnt have ample room to at least store a gate covered in blood in one of the most high profile crimes in the modern history of this state. And one which is still unsolved.

    Ah, its taking up too much room boys, we must get rid of it even though DNA evidence is advancing at a incredible rate all the time. Really? We should just really believe it was destroyed because of a lack of evidential value. Cmon



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    No, doesnt mean you didnt do it, plenty of perpetrators of crimes over the years have confessed to them when their conscious got the better of them, like when Marie Farrell admitted she falsely implicated Bailey because of Garda pressure & rang Bailey's solicitor.

    But, nothing about the manner in which Bailey was acting in, in the days after the murder shows he was trying to cover up something like any half intelligent murderer would have done. It would be consistent with the fact he still protesting his innocence 25 years later, why he is lobbying the garda commissioner to re-open the case, why he took civil actions action the state & the newspapers who reported the crime, why he stayed in west cork all this time since the murder. None of those actions are consistent with the actions of a guilty man.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Just wondering what would happen to Ian Bailey if he decided to return to the UK? Would he be arrested and then extradited to France? ( given the fact that the UK left the EU now) Innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt also applies to the UK law, as far as I know or the Irish law is more or less based on the UK system at least from a historic perspective.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And why has he shared all the garda and French files with documentary makers like Sheridan, West cork couple etc and probably others even investigators knowing that it could potentially incriminate him??



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You would imagine there would be some grounds for a case like this to be brought to the European Court of Human Rights.

    The man is innocent until proven guilty, (except in France of course), yet he is clearly being harassed and discriminated against.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Diaries war written to keep track of important experiences. Noticing drug activity in the area would probably have been noted in there. Thus the killer would have to made sure, they were gone, thus he must have been inside her house, possibly have known her ways of doing/hiding things? It's at least another theory.

    Could it have been Sophie who may have wanted a divorce instead of her husband? And possibly considering meeting a divorce lawyer in Ireland? Probably not? Divorce wasn't legal in Ireland back then yet? or maybe it was?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,248 ✭✭✭nc6000


    He would likely be arrested if he leaves Ireland, in one of the series he says he couldn't go home to see his mother when she was dying and also couldn't go to her funeral.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Irish Family Law (Divorce) Act 1996 was not commenced until 27 Feb 1997. Even once commenced a couple would have had to be living separately and apart for four of the previous five years to file for divorce. Also one or other would also have had to been domiciled in Ireland. I would doubt the reason for her journey was to meet a divorce lawyer in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I doubt that as well.

    The thing is, we all know way to little of the motive.

    It's entirely possible that if Sophie would have filed for divorce in another country other than France, that she would have gotten more out of the divorce.

    The UK seems to be such a country, for instance, where it's more "lucrative" to get a divorce, if more money can be gained. However I am not a divorce expert.

    The circumstances of the marriage and the possible divorce plus the existing life insurance Daniel had on his wife are certainly a very very good motive for murder.

    This also makes me wonder, if the life insurance was also to be paid, not only in the case of death by natural causes, but also in the case of murder? And if it was paid at all, wouldn't the insurance like to see some evidence? Insurance companies do have their own investigators as far as I know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It does seem that she was there to meet someone business or personal we don't know. She also wasn't happy to be there alone this time. Any diaries would have been useful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    Logically thinking..

    Among the whole cast of suspects (and they are indeed a rare bunch..), one must put the Hubby at the top of the list.

    Why?

    He was having an affair at the time of Sophie's death, a young piece of fluff by all accounts..

    Sophie was being rogered outside the marriage as well. This could have caused immense embarrassment to the high rolling, powerful film maker? Was she becoming troublesome to him, was he getting tired of her indiscretions?

    On the last night before Sophie was murdered, the Husband rang his Wife at around 11.30pm. The call lasted around half an hour, with one exception. The Husband hung up on Sophie for six minutes before re-dialling her number. This was the last phone call Sophie would ever receive.

    What did the Husband do in them six minutes? Did he confirm Sophie was at the cottage alone? Did he pass that on to someone with bad intent? All speculation of course..

    The Husband didn't fly to Ireland with the family to identify Sophie - Very odd behavior.

    The Husband gets the piece of fluff in the family way and marries her (not the antics of a heart broken, grieving widower)

    And finally, to top it off.. He boots Sophie's Son out of the house. (No love lost there ...)

    Would the Gards not be better off looking at the Husband before Ian Bailey??

    If the diaries existed, they would be a real game changer. The obvious conclusion being that they contained information about Sophie's troubled life, and who the main agitators were..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    I also find it strange that she had been planning to spend Christmas on her own in Cork. I've seen this said in a number of places, including John Montagues article above. i know Sophie asked a few people to come with her but it was very short notice at a time of year when everyone has plans made.

    Either way she was happy to go on her own in the end, with a plan to stay until after Christmas. The earliest she could have left would have been Stephen's day as the airports are all closed here on Christmas day. Do we know what day she originally planned to fly back to France?

    She seems to have changed her mind shortly after arriving and had tickets to fly on the 23rd and 24th.

    But it's strange that, regardless if she was having marital issues, that she chose to spend Christmas alone in an isolated location in a foreign country, particularly when she had a young son and elderly parents in France.

    Checking on the heating is BS. She told her parents this, they were likely as puzzled as I am now as to why she was going over there at all. But it's a lame excuse. As other posters have said, the housekeeper could have checked it out and organised to get it fixed if needs be.

    Not alone do we not have a motive as to why she was murdered, but we don't have her motive to travel.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The problem is, we have no evidence at all, and that together with unreliable and clearly lying witnesses like Marie Farrell, other possible witnesses who passed away by now, general memories fading, corrupt and / or incompetent police officers etc... it's even unlikely that any kind of serious retrial is an option to either clear Bailey or convict Bailey beyond reasonable doubt.

    That is unless there is new evidence, like maybe the find blood stained clothes belonging to Bailey with Sophie's DNA all over, in some plastic bag conserved, and buried behind the Studio, etc....

    Other than that, we can only speculate on the motives to the murder. Regarding motive, Bailey would come in last in terms of ranking when it comes to any form of financial benefit to Sophie's death. Taking a hike at night to Sophie's house, killing her, hiking back, and hiding and later burning his clothes, and that all, after a night out in the pub, would technically make it possible for Bailey to do it, but the motive for that is more than unclear, there isn't even a financial benefit to him nor is there a shred of evidence backing up this theory.

    Number one motives ( no evidence as well ) would still be either :

    • drugs, Sophie seen or heard something, somebody felt threatened and murdered her or pressured somebody who was in it as well to murder her....
    • the avenging lover ( the Guard from Bantry , the German musician) the husband or ex-lover in France hiring a hitman, cheating on marriage, avoiding a costly divorce, cashing in on the mentioned life insurance upon Sophie's death....

    Other than motive there's nothing really to go on other than speculation and unanswered questions.

    Ultimately, it's down to the police to gather and present the evidence, to the judge. If there is no evidence there is nothing to convict anybody, thus the killer walks free.....

    Post edited by tinytobe on


This discussion has been closed.
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