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Michael D Higgins insists he is President of Ireland, refuses to commemorate partition

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    So just be clear what you are suggesting. No riddles. Why do you believe the greatest movement of people from their homes in peacetime Europe?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Factually incorrect again.

    1) It is called the Irish fa because when it formed the island was One region of the Uk and it followed England etc

    2) everyone in the north is not Irish

    3) OWC used the name NI in the 70s

    but sure you know this anyhow. You are just playing silly games




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,125 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The history is here.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Football_Association

    Another long dispute basically due to partition. Why am I not surprised.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,958 ✭✭✭circadian


    Mostly fearmongering, possibly misguided but nonetheless harmful to multiple communities.


    You still haven't answered why you think it happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    What is The President of Ireland's proper title? "President of Ireland" is the only way Nesbitt refers to the office in quotes by him.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,749 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    There's a good letter in todays Irish Times...


    Sir, – The hypocrisy of unionist politicians in criticising President Michael D Higgins’s failure to attend a service marking the centenary of partition is breathtaking but not surprising.


    How many of these unionist critics would, in the future, accept an invitation to attend a service, in Dublin, to mark an anniversary for the unification of Ireland? – Is mise,


    PAT HOLLAND,

    Carrickmacross,

    Co Monaghan.

    So @downcow would you happily attend such a commemoration? Would the DUP?



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You need to stop thinking of unionists as a body of like-minded cloned people, there are people with widely different backgrounds and attitudes as I have already said. A lot just want a happy, peaceful and reasonably prosperous life. At the moment Unionist relations with England are at an all-time post-partition low because of the Irish Sea border, the UK itself is under threat by Scottish Independence, the current instance of the Tory Party is the most corrupt and untrustworthy that I have ever seen, and polls in British media have shown few people there care a jot for here and are at best ambivalent towards N. Ireland staying in the union.

    If it was possible for a second to take a step back and view the whole from outside the N. Ireland bubble, it is quite clear (to me anyway) that our future lies with Ireland and not the UK. The UK is a failed political experiment, or at best has outlived it's usefulness. It (and the Kingdom of Great Britain before that) was conceived to provide England with labour, soldiers and ship building, etc for the Empire, and those days are clearly well behind us. It serves no current purpose, and is as ludicrous as Denmark joining Germany today to form a new country. The EU has made it easier for smaller countries to exist, survive and thrive as part of a continent wide grouping.

    The Brexit vote was a huge indicator of this, if everyone in Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland had voted Remain, it would still have taken only something like 58% of England to vote Leave and still get a majority. We (ie the 3 'other countries') have no real say. We in N. Ireland can't even vote for the party that forms the Government. Personally I think the aim of the current Tory party is to break up the Union and so ensure a permanent Tory majority in Britain (ie England + Wales). But I digress.

    So yes, Unionists are made up of individual people and are open to persuasion like any other body of individual people. Percentage wise, it wouldn't take that many (as I have done) to switch their decision from the UK to Ireland to gain a majority - there is a current window of opportunity like never before. Which is why I think it's a real shame that Higgins has done what he did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,775 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    This issue involving Michael D. (President of 'Ireland') and the NI state. Is a problem created over decades of linguistic contortions in how those in the ROI view the state of NI. And how those in Eire view themseleves. It has been caused by various parties in the ROI 

    - from Dev's clever non use of the word 'Republic' in the Irish constitution after FF was in power. To facilitate the 're-integration of the national territory' (Art 3 since removed by the GFA)


    To FG's ROI act in 1948 and SF's current linguistic contortions encapsulated by SF's 'mild mannered' Blackrock educated Eoin O'Brion.

    --


    From the article above:

    "The linguistic contortions extend to the party’s more mild-mannered housing spokesman Eoin Ó Brion. 

    In his book Home: Why Public Housing is the Answer, he calls the Republic “Southern Ireland” - the same name given by the British to the shortlived entity which was created as a result of the Government of Ireland Act (1920) as a counterpoint to Northern Ireland.


    Ó Broin explains: “Throughout the book the term South of Ireland refers to the entity officially known as the Republic of Ireland. Given that I am a Sinn Féin TD and committed Irish republican, I doubt you need me to explain the rationale for this.”


    --


    Previous Linguistic contortions in the 'ROI' with the ROI Act 1948



    From the article above:

    "The third change brought in by the act was the new title "Republic of Ireland". This proved controversial in two respects, constitutional and political. 

    At the constitutional level, some argued that it conflicted with Article 4 of the Constitution, which defined the name of the state as "Eire, or, in the English language, Ireland".


    This was circumvented by a peculiar device: the name of the State continues to be Ireland, but its "description" is "Republic of Ireland".


    --


    In this day and age you have to wonder who is codding who?

    Are people just caught up in a linguistic game they cannot get out of? 

    Do people not feel idiotic in this day and age using such linguistic gymnastics?

    Or is it part of the craic of it at this stage?

    Personally, I find it both amusing and a bit of eejitry from some at this stage. Even otherwise intelligent people, are still playing a childish linguistic game after nearly 100 years of the foundation of both states.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Aww crap, the one week my DeLorean is in the garage. Serious whataboutery.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,125 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




    I think its a fair question considering how many times its been an issue. Was one of the causes of the split in the football associations.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,125 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    I think we have to wait till that slowly dawns on them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    How can you answer a question based on a hypothetical, that will be 10, 20, 40, 60, 100+ years into the future?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,125 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    You base it on past behavior for similar events.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Apologies to Mike Nesbitt. He got it right. Its the UUP's newsletter in its introductory paragraph that got his title wrong. You would think they would know better.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    it's a ridiculous question, it's asking them to view something that is 50+ / 100+ years in the future and will be coloured by events that are variable such as how does the unification happen ie close vote and a bitter process or an amicable one, how do things pan out after unification ie does the North become a poor wasteland or is it a seamless equal part of the country, do unionists stay and make their home there or is there a mass migration, are those that feel British allowed to keep their British identity in the same way that the GFA allows room for those that feel Irish. All this and more would affect the answer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Look, I do agree with you that there are many shades of unionism in NI, with possibly many of them who do not vote. What I don't understand is the support the the DUP/TUV get. The TUV even make the DUP look liberal. Why do these parties have so much support from the unionist community in NI?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    There has never been a past event commemorating United Ireland.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Not sure if this has been posted yet, but it seems entirely consistent that Michael D decline the invitation.

    And unionist angst, is play acting.




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,125 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    Its would be just another historic event. That its a possible future event is irrelevant.

    Unless of course you've zero imagination or being particularly obtuse.

    Its seems like a event for 100yrs of Partition, or Unification. May not be as unbiased as people are trying to imply. Considering all the "what if and but ifs" being thrown around.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,775 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    It is 'play acting' on all sides let's be honest. And I think they all secretly get a kick out of linguistic 'one-up-manship'. Better with words than bullets, I suppose - that's progress.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    So the Office of the President of Ireland should hold itself to the level of the DUP. What a horrible little tinpot country we live in. We need to grow up as a nation and move on from the sibling teenage angst we have with NI. He said, she said nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,775 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Very well said, I have come to the same conclusion in recent years, the future for NI is clearly unification and better sooner rather than later, the UK in it's current form was mortally wounded by Brexit and there is no road back, the next chance the Scottish get they will vote to leave the union and at that point NI's place in the union will become untenable with a growing desire in westminster to offload the problem child they won't take much persuasion for another border poll. Expect a vitriolic response from "loyalism" but that is something we will have to unfortunately endure at some point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭hawley


    The DUP/hardline Unionists want to maintain things as they are. It'd be like a man sitting in the nightclub waiting for a woman to come over to chat him up. We have to make all the moves and take the rebuffs. Michael spent virtually all his career outside of power in government, he doesn't seem to have an actual clue about how to handle awkward situations. He is playing up to the current public feelings of anti-Britishness. He is as dangerous as Trump, causing division and telling innumerable lies. He has taken the populist line, he is a political extremist.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,749 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    How is it whataboutery? The unionists have politicised it by complaining about MDH declining the invitation. So asking on them reciprocating the offer is valid. Ok so, similar question: when did a unionist leader last attend a St Patrick's Day parade in NI?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    This mass isn't a celebration, like St Patricks Day was, or the 1916 Commemoration was. Have you read the invite?? The service will provide the opportunity for honest reflection on the past one hundred years, with an acknowledgement of failures and hurts, but also with a clear affirmation of our shared commitment to building a future marked by peace, reconciliation and a commitment to the common good. The overriding theme will be that of 'Hope'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    This is one of the most hyperbolic posts I've read on this site since someone claimed Leo as one of the most evil people in the world.


    Perhaps on reflection you might realise that whatever personal dislike you clearly hold towards Higgins is clouding your rationality on this one.

    A political extremist and as dangerous as Trump....christ almighty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭hawley



    The Church Leaders’ Group, which is hosting the Northern Ireland centenary service in St Patrick’s Cathedral, Armagh, next month, first became aware President Michael D Higgins would not be attending through the media, sources have indicated.

    There is also disquiet in the group, for security reasons, that the expected attendance at the event of Queen Elizabeth was disclosed last week. This was described by one source as “a serious error of judgment”.


    He didn't even have the decency to reply to their invitation and now he has jeopardized the Queen's attendance. He lied when he said that he engaged with the organizers on the theme of the event, but our media will give him a free pass as usual.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Engaging with the DUP despite their duplicity and hostility, risks normalizing being treated that way.



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