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Energy infrastructure

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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, the reason we are seeing higher energy prices, is frankly because we haven't moved fast enough to renewables and are still too reliant on a commodity market of gas and oil.

    Commodity markets jump and fall in price constantly and as a result your energy costs are tied to this roller-coaster.

    And if you look at the core reasons why gas prices are increasing, it is due to global warming, more extreme weather, hotter summers and colder winters require more gas for heating and electricity/cooling and more extreme hurricanes, etc. impact gas producing and transportation facilities ramping up prices further.

    And of course as we burn more gas, it will just add to more global warming and even more extreme weather and thus more gas demand!

    We desperately need to get off this roller-coaster. More renewables and more storage/hydorgen/interconnector options (and yes Nuclear globally) will help stabilise prices and disconnect us from this commodity market.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    2 MW there's individual wind turbines that can deliver more even if you include capacity factor.

    It's yet another experimental thorium reactor. If it works, and if they can scale it up and if they can make it cost competitive and if they can source enough fissile fuel to start new reactors then, and only then does it become interesting.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    One of the other problems is nuclear outages. Overall, the capacity of Britain’s ageing nuclear fleet of reactors is down by about one-third (5.2GW compared to 8GW) this week amid planned maintenance and unexpected problems. And it's unseasonably warm for this time of year. It's like the energy companies are trying to make money rather than investing in the network

    The other problem is that At the beginning of 2021 there were 70 energy suppliers in the UK. Industry sources say there may be as few as 10 left by the end of the year.

    But it's OK because No chance lights will go out, says government

    But the UK steel industry is getting hammered by electricity costs. UK Steel said electricity costs accounted for up to 20% of the price of converting raw materials into steel.


    There's an old joke about a communist utopia in the desert "It was OK for a few years but then there was a shortage of sand"

    Boris, leader of the party that will cut £30Bn in development aid is calling for "concrete action" on climate change. My irony meter then broke because the UK carbon dioxide shortage could 'cancel Christmas',



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    That's mostly explained by the move from coal to cheaper, more efficient gas.

    U.S. coal-fired capacity peaked at 318 gigawatts (GW) in 2011 down to 229GW by 2019

    Coal plant utilisation from 67% in 2010 to 48% in 2019.

    Also

    "Although coal at U.S. power plants has cost less than natural gas, for coal to be competitive, its delivered cost must be at least 30% lower to make up for the differences in efficiency between a typical coal-fired plant and a typical natural gas-fired plant. These differences are even larger for more efficient natural gas-fired combined-cycle plants. Coal plants must also offset higher costs for emission control equipment and other operations."



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    You sound like our current Green Minister for napping and energy poverty🙄



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    I've posted several other links on the matter which u have ignored so less of the BS on the subject please. The Sunday Business Post is currently behind a paywall but plenty of copies still in shops if your that interested

    I



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    The point is that wind energy needs constant back up from gas so is an utterly pointless waste of resources supported by an ever growing PSO levy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    So we rely on fairy dust when the wind isn't blowing etc. Also I suggest you get a book on basic climate science if you think the likes of Hurricanes, Droughts etc. are something that only came along recently



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Capacity factor for wind turbines is a meaningless concept in the real world - the performance of wind energy on the grid this year being a prime example. No doubt you think its "free" too if we just ignore stuff like PSO levies, wind related grid costs etc.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What is your answer to the issues that you are highlighting @Birdnuts

    More fossil fuel plants?

    Nuclear on the island?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    again, theres a possibility, the planet actually doesnt have enough raw materials for 100% renewable systems, this leaves nuclear as the only true option, and thorium seems to be the way to go, but as others have said, only if it truly does work at the industrial level, its a wait and see game, but we re quickly running out of time



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,862 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I thought he/she was also ok with interconnectors to nuclear?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    You are going to need some strong evidence to back those extraordinary claims. ( there's enough gold in the planet to cover the surface several meters deep, but only the stuff from meteorites is accessible cf. Hank Scorpio Elon Musk & co )

    You can't make a cost competitive thorium breeder yet. And they've been trying since 1946.

    You can't make a thorium breeder yet. You even can't make a proper plutonium breeder yet even with virtually unlimited cold war budgets and patriotism and best brains on all sides. NASA are making very heavy weather or putting people back on the moon if you want to compare the drive back then with now.

    Some raw materials for some specialised PV systems are in short supply in the sense that current production won't handle 100's of GW of those panel types. But rare earths aren't rare and raw materials for the high volume panels aren't scarce (except in the sense that Covid has disrupted supply chains for now)

    Technically you don't need rare earths for wind turbines, but using them means slightly better efficiency and a lot less weight on top of a tall tower. Taipei 101 is a skyscraper with a titanium roof because it's cheaper than steel when you include the cost of supporting the extra weight of steel and supports on each and every one of the 101 floors below.


    Nuclear needs a capacity factor of 80% at twice the average wholesale price to be remotely economic. And it can only supply base load and base load is only guaranteed to be 25-30% of minimum demand and dispatchable plant will be competing on price and nuclear needs more spinning reserve than any other power source and for the first decade it won't deliver a single watt of power and will be a nett carbon source during that time. ( Because of the need to be selling almost full power almost all the time I would not consider nuclear to be 'dispatchable' as you are limited in when and for how long you can turn it off )



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    AFAIK fossil fuel plants get more levies than renewables. Interconnectors are cheaper than power plants and their fuel.

    Interestingly the UK is in a mess because they only have 1% of Europe's gas storage capacity (HIGNFY had this on the opening credits for years so no excuse) and so were very exposed to price changes. It would not surprise me if there was some Enron type shenanigans going on with people diverting gas supplies ( pipe , LNG ) to extract a better price from the UK. Gazprom are not increasing supply which means EU gas is 10% dearer. Nord 2 should be online soon but EU-US-Russia politics too.

    Storage and stretching natural gas with renewable hydrogen is quicker than building nuclear power plants. Way cheaper too. And you don't have to feed and house the white elephants for 70+ years, and pay for the grave after that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah here, a 45 min podcast

    You could have just linked to the Professors paper on the topic where he states "Global reserves are not large enough to supply enough metals to build the renewable non-fossil fuels industrial system or satisfy long term demand in the current system." This statement, however, is related to lithium, nickel & cobalt consumption. There are literally 100's of projects around the world ongoing to move away from all 3 of those minerals so its a meaningless statement as it ignores whats going on right now in the battery industry. Given this paper was only published this year, its a particularly sloppy oversight in my humble opinion.

    Here's what he reckons the outlook is for the various elements

    He discusses recycling, which to be straight, we're doing a piss poor job of at the moment so there is a lot of scope to improve there. The current recycling rates he states are

    He makes a good point regarding recycling which I know I personally never thought of

    Recycling also can only be done so many times before the feedstock becomes useless. Natural laws such as physics and thermodynamics determine the maximum achievable recycling rate as a function of the quality of the recycling (side stream intermediate) products (Reuter et al 2006). It can be concluded that the recyclability of a product is not only determined by the intrinsic property the different materials used, but by the quality of the recycling streams (Reuter et al 2006)

    He then discusses diminishing returns and escalating inefficiencies as we have gotten all the easy stuff out of the ground and it's getting more difficult and costly to keep getting some elements.

    Where he looks at the oil industry he points out the impacts the price swings have on producers and consumers i.e. price to low for producers to make a profit, price to high for consumers to be able to afford

    This is likely to happen to a lot more minerals as time goes on but we already knew this.

    Its a good paper, well written with a lot of really good information, however there are issues with it too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    im dyslexic, i might as well be p1ssing against the wind reading papers, but in saying that, i have actually come across such research in journals, in the past, and i ll return your statement and say, i cant actually understand your post, due to explained



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Everything needs constant back up - and the bigger the individual unit of generation and also the bigger the critical choke point on the grid the more back up and spinning reserve required -

    In the uk It wasn't the interconnector to France itself that failed it was the transformer that went up in smoke and bang 2 gw out of the system in one go -

    You could have 10 wind farms with 10 turbines each in an area , if 1 turbine goes unexpectedly off line it's no big deal , but if the high voltage line that they all feed into goes bang you'll need to have spinning reserve to counter that - the 3 individual units in money point have a similar issue , it's unlikely


    Off shore windfarms and nuclear are probably both at higher risk of " single point of failure " because of their scale ,

    None of it is simple or has a "magic " one size fits all quick fix -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    There's a thing 'Peak Mining' which like 'Peak Oil' means that a material becomes uneconomic to extract even if there's loads of it still in the ground. Uranium is a classic example. You can detect it from low flying aircraft, but a lot of the remaining reserves are in granite which takes a lot of energy to process.


    On the first picture the first red element is helium. Trump sold off US stockpiles. For many industrial purposed it could be recaptured/recycled for about 4? times it's current cost. Or you can extract it from the atmosphere if you really need it. It's just cheaper when it's part of natural gas and fracking means the supply should go up.

    Li is lithium. Big for batteries, fuss over opening a new mine in Portugal. This really needs to be recycled more. I can't see it being a long term solution for grid storage though. Mg is magnesium. Can be extracted from seawater.

    Zn is zinc. Ga As Ge In Te all used in solar panels and electronics , BUT silicon keeps catching up on GaAs and if you don't mind doing a bit more work then 2/3rd's of the earths crust is silicon dioxide. Ag is silver, widely used in solar panels until panels got so cheap that it was 10% of the cost at which point you go back to copper or transparent coatings.

    Rare earths aren't rare, they are messy to process, new tech should help wind energy there. There are so many different types of solar that a bottleneck in one material isn't a showstopper.


    BTW Zr is zirconium. It can be used to make overhead lines stand up to heat better. So you can run 50% more power through the same infrastructure at the expense of more heating.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Think we'll just have to nationalise the whole grid and run it as a not for profit entity, competition was meant to make electricity cheaper instead we've a cartel ripping us all off, they hired a fuking regulator who's an industry insider,



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,348 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Until we can adequately store that energy in the form of green hydrogen and to a lesser extent batteries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,348 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Does anyone know why white gate and hunts town have been offline for so long?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Global gas prices have shot up since Apr.

    Several reasons behind this, producers slowed down during initial lockdowns and are slow in starting back up, increased consumption as other FF sources are used less and less, Russia slowing supplies to Europe to force a quicker certification of Nordstream II so they can bypass the pipeline through Ukraine and thereby screw over Ukraines supplies and hopefully cause destabilization of the govt there etc etc etc

    But yeah, cartel lol



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Norway agreed yesterday to increase natural gas exports to the rest of Europe - https://www.independent.ie/business/world/norway-promises-more-gas-supply-as-prices-soar-40871193.html


    Live European gas https://transparency.entsog.eu/#/map you can zoom and click to see imports/exports of gas



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The gas price spike is having other impacts, specifically, the CO2 production industry in Britain is buggered which has knock-on impacts for drinks manufacturers, meat packing plants etc. Its mad




  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    It is state-owned by ESB afaik and EirGrid who operate it do invest in some hard assets too. Does nationalisation mean something different to state ownership?

    Have not read the CO2 article yet but remember fizzy water was out of stock everywhere for one summer a few years back.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That makes no sense to the argument you are supposedly making. The government agrees to buy at a price.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think, perhaps, are anticipating the future. Solid state batteries are the future.

    That said, getting rid of nuclear powered energy was a disaster.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Storing green Hydrogen in old gas wells looks to be the future. Solid state won't scale that big.

    Nuclear is a financial disaster. Imagine how expensive it would cost to insure an on-time on-budget nuclear power station program. And by insure I mean adsorb ALL the cost increases AND the costs of supplying alternate power from it's scheduled date AND any costs due to poor design or construction AND any difference in the originally advertised price.

    If this sounds crazy remember that when a new type of airliner is built the airlines have penalty clauses for weight and expect Boeing or Airbus to pay for the extra fuel for an overweight airliner for it's entire life.



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