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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    No - all the PSO money is going to support wind(and will increase further when solar is added)



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    In the last 20 years since we started putting wind on the grid, Irelands energy prices have gone from below the EU average to now among the highest. I would also point out that Gas prices were signficantly higher back in 2007.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Isn't it interesting that the likes of Germany and Denmark who have covered their land and seas with windfarms are the ones out in front when it comes to the desperate scramble for gas supplies.......

    Post edited by Birdnuts on


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    German appetite for gas is because they dropped nuclear like a hot potato and are phasing out coal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Both our natural gas grid and our electricity grid are owned and run by semi state companies -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    It used to be almost all to cover the peat power stations ,

    if we built a nuclear power station you'd see the pso go through the roof to pay for that -

    If we went further into coal you'd be massively paying some form of carbon tax ,

    Most of the pso is currently going to older wind farms ( as in 15 year contracts to encourage their construction in the past, newer onshore windfarms get very little incentives because it's a mature profitable technology.

    Fixed Off shore wind at scale won't get large subsidies either ,

    Floating offshore will ... For a while ,

    And grid upgrades need paying for ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That correlation might be true but the cause probably isn’t. Not least because other countries in the EU are also using wind. The recent spikes seem to get due to gas demand.



    frankly if we had more wind farms, particularly off shore, then we would be in a better position. Arguments on this thread are often made in bad faith.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    BS. Nuclear is not a financial disaster, that would be a more apt description for the electricity market in Germany - where domestic prices have doubled in a couple of years precisely because they shut down nuclear and coal and went for 'cheap wind'. Same for the uK - the lack of cheap wind has seen the UK consumers - via the government - forced to subsidise a US companie's gas costs in order to have them make CO2. After all this CO2 climate change BS and taxes, they are having to pay to have CO2 made. Irony simply isn't a strong enough word.

    All the wind advocates and anti-nukers see interconnectors to French nuclear power as being the saving grace for the complete mess that is reliance on wind. So nuclear power is a financial disaster - unless you are buying the power from the French. Gobsmacking hypocrisy. I'll take bets that the French will soon be running out of nuclear capcity as more and more of Europe comes to rely on them and they will of course do the sensible thing and look after their own interests and restrict how much they export. You shouldn't rely on the good graces of foreign suppliers as the backbone of your electricity infrastructure and supply. If the Russians get miffed at the EU over Nordstream 2 or something, I wouldn't put it past them to arrange some simultaneous undersea 'accidents' to some interconnectors. A large number of military subs these days have ancillary subs and ROVS and I doubt they are just intended for delivering special forces or tapping into fibre trunks. Placing expolsive charges would be a doddle. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/russia-launches-deadly-new-underwater-23838389

    Currently, that nuclear financial disaster is pouring electricity from France into the UK, Belgium, Italy and Spain - and probably onwards from those to others:

    Everyon's busy sucking on the nuclear teat and you are calling it a financial disaster, as usual. Stone the bloody crows! There is no financial disaster than even gets close to a lack of electricity.

    As for Hydrogen: I hope it works, but it's the smallest molecule of any element and it will readily penetrate and pass through most physical materials, particularly if under pressure. I don't see fractured and porous rock that can hold NG being much of a barrier to it. Back in my SCUBA diving days, I once went to use one of my cylinders that had been filled many months previously. I soon noticed that I was breathing heavily and rapidly and cut short the dive. It turn out that Oxygen molcules are smaller than Nitrogen and CO2 ones and that under 3200 psi, tmany of them had migrated through the fairly thick aluminium of the cylinder, leaving behind the nitrogen and CO2, so I was breathing oxygen depleted air. With Hydrogen the physical permeability of 'solids' is a lot worse.

    The answer to the problem of wind variability seems to always be some unproven technology that no one else is currently using, but they think is promissing. She'll be right, mate.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It basically already is!

    EirGrid who operate the Grid are 100% state owned company.

    ESB Networks build and maintain the grid, the ESB is 95% state owned (other 5% by ESB Employees).

    You are probably talking about Electricity production, and while their is some private involvement there, over half our energy geeneration capacity is owned by the ESB, which again is mostly state owned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,348 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Well hunts town and white gate are privately owned and they’re the ones that have us in this mess due to them being off line!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    The french majorly subsidised the construction and development of their nuclear industry ,

    As their stations are aging they're not planning on replacing all of them - cos it's too expensive - ( french consumers/ electors wouldn't put up with expensive electricity )

    They are still building reactors - including 2 projects in the uk -

    Incidentally the uk is also currently suffering about 3 gw unplanned shortage from 2 of it's nuclear plants - as well the 2 gw from the interconnector,

    Because apparently this sort of sh1t just happens sometimes - (and you can always count on the Russians to put the boot in when they can ) ,

    If we get a particularly windy winter you can bet that our (relatively small ) imterconnectors to the uk will be running flat out ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    And Moneypoint, which is ESB/state owned was offline in 2019.

    Stuff breaks, nothing to do with public versus private. Given the rising gas prices and high cost of generation at the moment, you can bet that BG and Energia are kicking themselves that their plants are offline and are probably rushing to get them back online and earning money ASAP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    Germany havent shut down coal fired plants.

    CO2 for packaging and atmospheric CO2 are separate issues.

    your the one buulshitten.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Thats a wholly inaccurate picture you paint - If that was the case then the PSO levy wouldn't still be rising at an ever faster rate.

    https://www.businessworld.ie/news-from-ireland/Electricity-bills-to-rise-by-almost-90-a-year-for-over-1-million-customers-574553.html

    "The Public Service Obligation levy (PSO levy), is a Government levy that is charged to all electricity customers in Ireland. The money collected from the PSO levy is now solely used to support the renewable energy sector in Ireland "



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Denmark,UK and Germany all have extensive onshore and offshore windfarms, yet are the most desperate to secure more gas supplies so your post on the subject is not based on reality or basic logic🙄



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All this talk of theoretical nuclear technologies further up the thread makes no sense.

    Nuclear here is probably politically unacceptable, so it’s just not going to happen.

    If it did happen, it would have to be an off the shelf solution. So realistically, you’d be looking at a conventional, standards based, serviceable, whatever the current generation of technology is and from one of the handful of major suppliers, not some experimental thing that isn’t in commercial use.

    However, it’s all pie in the sky. The public here wouldn’t accept a nuclear plant being located here and the scale of the country also makes it less not very good on economies of scale.

    The economic calculations also rarely seem to take in the life cycle of nuclear plants including fuel disposal and decommissioning, which has been astronomically expensive in places like the U.K.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    We are already importing nuclear from the UK and will be importing even more in the future when that interconnector to France gets built. Most of this year so far it was gas,coal and nuclear keeping the lights on in these islands. The pie in the sky stuff is coming from posters here who think building more stationary windmills will somehow change this situation in the future🙄



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We do have a decent wind resource though, given the location and renewables are going to have to be part of the mix.

    I wouldn’t get too excited about a single 700MW interconnect or to France. It’s only the size of a single moderately sized CCGT gas plant.

    In the short to medium term, the U.K. isn’t going to have a lot to export capacity. They’re in a worse situation than we are and have a fleet of ageing nuclear plants that use a weird technology (gas cooled, graphite core) which isn’t all that life extensible and they have so far brought nothing new online.

    The challenge with wind is the backup needed and making that economically viable. That’s ultimately going to come down to a calculation on what cost is assigned to generating CO2 emissions and that’s going to be driven by EU and global policy.

    Ireland probably needs at least 2 interconnections to the French and thus continental EU grid if we are going to be both have the capacity and avoid single points of failure issues.

    We don’t have the access to scale and diversify of suppliers of say somewhere like Denmark because our grid is basically very isolated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,393 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I would be in favour of Nuclear myself for Ireland, but let us be honest here, we can barely build a bike lane in this country before it gets mired in a planning and public consultation mess. We have neither the political will or the stomach for this stuff in this country, where we do not do Infrastructure well. How much would a nuclear power plant cost to build here? 10 Billion, 20 Billion? Not a chance.

    So interconnectors to the UK and France is the easy way to utilise Nuclear.


    What we can do is offshore wind, building a smarter grid and get as many people and homes retrofitted for insulation and solar PV with batteries.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mine is. Yours isn’t. The link I posted said the problem is gas shortages. You are mistaking correlation with causation.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "I wouldn’t get too excited about a single 700MW interconnect or to France. It’s only the size of a single moderately sized CCGT gas plant."

    Our largest CCGT plant is just 463MW, smallest is 339MW, average around 400MW. So it is closer to two gas plants.

    The Celtic Interconnector + Greenlink interconnector (another 500MW) will allow us to basically close Moneypoint (915MW) which will significantly reduce the emissions of our grid and allow us to move closer to 70% zero emissions.

    I'd agree though that a second interconnector to France would be good and I suspect it will happen once the Celtic Interconnector is built.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Should we completely shut down moneypoint though - it's dirty but it's a hell of an asset - it can sit there , not depending on any pipeline with a full stock of coal , for those occasions when the Russians turn off the gas , and the wind is low - ( or 2 newish generators simultaneously go bang ) , yeah it'd probably take a week or 2 to get it up to full steam , but for the cost of it's maintenance it's an insurance policy -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69




  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    ...and phasing out lignite...and most of German has very little wind resource. I'm always surprised by what they consider a windy day. In Ireland their windy day would be a light breeze.



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Aside from quite a lot of nonsense in that article, what's the plant Intel were going to build that they're now not going to build?

    If it is true then maybe some details might be illuminating. If they wanted a plant that would use 10% of the entire grid then I don't think there's many countries who would be able to absorb that kind of infrastructure at the drop of a hat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    And here's me thinking people were so worried about CO2 they would realise some change in attitudes, sacrifice and facing of reality might be needed. Typical Irish moral bankruptcy. Precious Irish neutrality and no need to do the right thing; we can just sponge off France forever - just between you and me, we only joined the EU so our farmers could sponge off EU taxpayers - wink, wink. This whole corporate tax lark we have been pulling for decades seems to have been noticed. Not sure how we are going to scam our way out of this one. Good thing they don't seem to have noticed the VRT substituted for import tax thing yet, that one's a close call.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,863 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Any article that includes "..the tides make installing tidal energy systems exceedingly expensive" must be written by a total moron.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A funny definition of sponging - buying potentially hundreds of millions worth of energy exports and selling back eventual excess wind energy from the North Atlantic.

    Nuclear power isn’t exactly very popular anywhere anymore, with quite a few countries on active phase out plans for various reasons.

    Not building nuclear doesn’t equate to not wanting to reduce emissions.

    The countries that are doing well on wind are highly interconnected too - eg Denmark.

    You would struggle to justify. Take the EPR plant being built at Olkiluto-3. The original budget was €3.2 billion. It’s now at least 300% over budget and 12 years late. It’s not scheduled to be ready until February next year.

    That seems to be a fairly common occurrence in that sector.



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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    the European Union knows about VRT and accepts it. That’s madness of course. One of the things that annoys me about the EU - and I want it to continue to exist - is how little benefit some decisions have made for the little people.

    anyway I’m sure we are all agreed that shutting down energy plants is a bad idea. Greens shoot themselves in the foot.



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