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Varadkar hits the right note for Landlords

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,547 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    That is because they want the rent to be high enough so that, after tax, it covers the mortgage and expenses.

    Consider the analogy of a coupon-paying bond that matures in 20 years. It costs 1m to buy today and it pays an inflation-adjusted equivalent of 1m upon maturity. I am an investor and I can borrow to buy that bond today. It would be ridiculous of me to expect that the bond should pay a coupon large enough so that, after tax, the coupon is large enough to repay the loan in full over the lifetime of the bond.

    But that is analogous to what many amateur landlords appear to expect to happen in the case buying a house.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Im not a landlord, though i did spend a couple of years investigating getting into it and decided that I wouldnt.

    One of the main reasons is that I would have been paying a loan over many years and getting taxed at over 50% on the profit.

    So (not my exact figures, im totally making these ones up) you would be paying about €14000 of which 9000 was interest, so about €5000 profit.

    For ease, we can assume no other expenses (but of course there would be, like advertising, repairs, property tax, RTB etc).

    So Im shelling out €14000 and paying over €2000 tax.

    So that €16000+ going out and about €14000 in rent coming in.

    After 30 years I would own it outright though. Thats a very long way away with the goal posts moving with new legislation yearly.

    But anything can, and has been happening with new legislation and then you have the fact that paying rent in Ireland is now basically optional if you have a big enough neck.

    I know people who havent received a penny in rent for over 3 years now. And i doubt they will be getting their property back anytime soon. And god knows what damage they will end up having to pay to fix when they get it back too.

    Is that an investment that anyone could get behind. I think not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    Some truth to your argument there.

    I give you a different senario.

    I already have a house, but im interested in investing some money.

    You need a house because you have nowhere to live and dont own one.

    There is one house for sale but you cant afford to buy it.

    I buy it and rent it to you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Well a lot of people can't afford to become profitable jewellers or moneylenders either. If you need to borrow heavily to get a start it's a bad idea imo. It was a Celtic Tiger con that anyone could make easy money as an LL.

    If you only have one or two properties and thin margins a bad tenant will sink you financially.

    Is it possible to sell the debt for unpaid rent to a private debt collector? That is what I would prefer to do in that situation, if it's allowed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,547 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Given typical current circumstances, how much less than my mortgage payment - were I to get one for the purchase price; or in the alternative, how much less than your mortgage repayment - were you to get one to purchase the property. would you expect the rent to be?


    You see, your argument could be that I only want to live in a location temporarily. That is a valid argument on why I might want to choose to rent.

    But under current economic circumstances, to imply that the rent I would pay would be less than a mortgage repayment, is not a credible argument

    Edit to add. Either way, you buying the house does not add to the supply of houses overall. Which is an important factor given that there is an overall critical shortage for both rental and purchase. You may have increased the number of houses available for rent by outbidding a potential owner occupier, but at the expense of removing one from the availabitity for purchase. Had we a surplus in that market, there would be no issue. But we don't have that at the minute.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭DubCount


    There is no way to sell the debt arising from unpaid rent. The cost of pursuing the debt (assuming you can even find the defaulting tenant) is usually more than the benefit of chasing it. After the cost of bringing the tenant to court, you might get a judgement of a couple of Euro per week that could take years and years to repay. Why would any bank/fund/idiot buy something thats worth nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭Jmc25




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    A bunch of landlords in this thread. Cop yourselves on lads, you're not the ones hard done by!

    I heard some bint on the radio yesterday saying landlords are getting out of it. And they say this like it's a bad thing? What are they doing with it? Demolishing houses? Leaving them empty? No, they're selling them to first time buyers who are renting.

    Leo has some neck. You can switch it around to basically mean one persons income is another person rent with the rates of rent in this country.

    Landlords whinging would sicken your hole. "blah blah costs are gone up". You bought your house at a fixed price. If you bought your house 3 years ago for 300 thousand you have made a gain of around 35k+ so far just on capital appreciation. Your mortgage costs are actually getting lower because some companies entered with new products. Your rent has been going up 4% each year, that's over 12% in just 3 years! You're riding the tenants. And that's just those who bought 3 years ago who by the way I would have no pity for them if prices crashed after buying to let in an inflated market.

    Don't get me started on the lads who bought 10 years ago. Peanuts mortgage, house price over double.

    All you landlords can have your little circlejerk and cry about how you're the ones hard done by. You are leeches on society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭I see sheep


    Yes they do, through providing social welfare payments to people to buy food for people when they can't afford it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Landlords, the ones people are defending in this thread, do not supply housing. The housing is already there. If all those landlords woke up tomorrow and sold, they'd be filled by people currently renting anyways.

    For every happy little tenant paying rent, there's another first time buyer paying 50% of their income on rent who can't buy.

    So yes, if every landlord exited the market, we'd have a rental problem but the buyer problem would be massively reduced.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    No Landlords then no rental properties.

    People are making landlords the enemy and they won't be happy till they are driven out of the market, what the answer then?

    It more populist c**p from the opposition that haven't a clue how to run the country but just feed out buzz words to keep everyone happy. The main reason why Ireland rent is so high is because a huge amount of landlords got driven out of the market because of the regulations which will allows tenants to sit in house paying no rent and no wya to get them out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 casheltipp


    What a nasty use of language "I heard some bint on the radio", reported



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    Fair whiff of entitlement from your posts. You can't buy a house. It's somebody else's fault, they shouldn't be allowed buy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The tax burden isn't the issue, paying tax is a sign of profit , its all about the grossly disproportionate rights in favour of tenants



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,858 ✭✭✭growleaves


    SF are putting a halt to continual rent increases which outrun all other costs (including wages). Most renters are wary of an even worse gouge economy developing so a rent freeze is a slam dunk.

    I would weaken the rights of non-paying tenants, they should be flushed out quickly and I sympathise with LLs here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    I don't see how that makes the problem of today any worse?

    We have a shortage of properties for sale. Landlords selling would mean more properties for sale, that's a good thing.

    Yes, then there'd be a bigger rental problem, but the buying problem would be smaller.

    It's like a sliding scale with landlords and buyers. If you had 100 houses on the market and they were all bought by landlords to rent, you'd have more rental supply but those buying would have 0 chance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    I could buy if I wanted, have 130k in cash and stocks right at this moment.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    You do realise we have nearly 16k properties for sale today. We have a location problem, not a supply problem

    The rental issue are for people who cannot afford to buy houses, also we should be moving to a model like every other country in the World with long term rentals, not drive rentals out of the market.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭Jmc25


    Evicting non paying tenants is a problem for sure. Very few people other than a few bleeding hearts would disagree there.

    But the only stats available on rent collection in Ireland is from the institutional landlords. For IRES, the largest, that % rent collection is hate consistently been in the high 90s.

    That would suggest that while it can undoubtedly be a very unfair and traumatic experience for an individual landlord, it's not widespread behaviour?



  • Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭Jmc25


    Long term rentals would be a ticking time bomb in Ireland. We already spend too much on state pensions, and that's in the current situation where most pensioners have no housing costs.

    In addition, a proper model of long term rentals would require more regulations (grrr pesky government) not less.

    And also, just from a desirability point of view, why, other than to make multiple property owners richer at the expense of non property owners



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    What makes you think people renting would want to/be in a position to buy those houses tomorrow morning?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    Long term gets notice when you have years, you have regular occurrences of a couple of months rent loss and tenants walk away to do it to another property

    Or damage to property over the deposit and they walk away, all regular and not tracked



  • Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭agoodpunt


    Many here do not have a clue, LLs provide more than a space of your choosing, its a managed turn key, furnished, maintained, if mortgaged paid for, insured, some provide utilities, property tax is paid.

    New LLs will charge more as it get less



  • Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    Want to fix the rental crisis, rental houses should be unfurnished. Unpaid rent after 21 days gets 14 days notice to comply. If rent still unpaid after 45 days landlords or agents remove tenant and belongings onto street and change locks. It should never be a landlords responsibility to house freeloaders, that's the job of government.

    Renters in this country have had it far too easy for far to long time to even the scales back up and give the landlord protection from rental arrears and damage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    What of inflation for landlords. All costs go up. Repairs, insurance etc. Inline with inflation doesn't even cover some increases .



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,494 ✭✭✭touts


    SF are SAYING they will put a halt to continual rent increases. They are actually doing very little and when they win the next election we will all find that there is nothing backing up their "You can have everything you ever dreamed of and someone else will pay for it all" BS. There will be blood on the streets by 2030 when the public realise that the left were nothing but false promises and try to get them out of power again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands




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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Stop trolling, lol


    Tenant pays for all that through rent.



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