Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

RichieRich_89 · 22-09-2021 1:47pm

Zebo's experience of French rugby could be pretty valuable in a World Cup squad for a RWC in France. Although he would be 33 by then.

My one criticism of Keenan would be that he doesn't have a very accurate tactical kicking game. For that reason, I think Leinster might be better off with Keenan on the right wing and Jimmy O'Brien at fullback. O'Brien has a pinpoint kicking game and also brings Keenan's playmaking ability.

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2021 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923611#Comment_117923611

We dont have any other back 3 player who can cover all positions as well as zebo. He is streets ahead of others in terms of versatility and make him an excellent bench option.

OneLungDavy · 22-09-2021 2:21pm

Zeeeeebs

mfceiling · 22-09-2021 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923921#Comment_117923921

Excellent shít stirring Lawrence.

Any takers?

sydthebeat · 22-09-2021 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923991#Comment_117923991

i believe 2017 is willing to take that on.....

aloooof · 22-09-2021 2:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923409#Comment_117923409

Interested to hear what you think this criteria might look like? Because, imo, there are a huge array of factors that go into selection (many of which, we as fans have no visibility to) that make it practically unquantifiable.

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2021 3:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924132#Comment_117924132

Game time, tackles made, tackles missed, scores, kicking accuracy, handling, retention of possession, game management, discipline, fitness, line breaks.

Pretty standard stuff, but for a 15 some things are more important than others, like game management, kicking and fielding.

There is an obvious provincial bias that comes into selection on all sides for a lot of people, it would just be good if some posters would set out their criteria for why somebody should or should not be picked and then to see after a few rounds of games who has satisfied those criteria.

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2021 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923991#Comment_117923991

You think discussing the selection of an Irish player on a thread about the selection of Irish players is **** stirring ?

A top quality player has retuned and is now deemed eligible to play for Ireland, yet he has been overlooked by the management for a training camp, i find that odd to be honest and wonder what, if anything he would have to do in order that he be in contention come the time squads are selected for the autumn international's.

If you have nothing to add, then add nothing.

mfceiling · 22-09-2021 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924300#Comment_117924300

Top quality?

Maybe the other options have passed him out now and are better players?

Former Former Former · 22-09-2021 3:09pm

I don't think it's a training camp, considering they've called up players who are very definitely injured. It's a get together. presumably talking about goals for the season etc.

Not being called up to it isn't a massive snub,

sydthebeat · 22-09-2021 3:12pm

3 munster outside backs got called into that 50 man squad. im sure zebos first goal is to regularly get ahead of those for munster first.

mfceiling · 22-09-2021 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924343#Comment_117924343

Yeah but that's using reason and logic. What about hyperbole?

salmocab · 22-09-2021 3:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924367#Comment_117924367

No time for hyperbole straight to shouting nonsense is the way to go

aloooof · 22-09-2021 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924277#Comment_117924277

Setting specific criteria for all that out for a single position is of little value tho, imo. Selection is a far more nebulous thing. For example.

Game time: The combo of the back 3 will be as much a factor here. For example, it’s reasonable Farrell may we willing to re-introduce a player returning from injury if the others around him have decent game time and form.

Tackles missed: Not all missed tackles are made equal. For example, Ringrose is exceptionally good at shooting out of the line, scragging the attacker with the 2nd defender coming in to complete the tackle behind the gain line. The attacking team have gone backwards, but this would go down as a negative on Ringrose’s stats, under your criteria.

Line Breaks: This is as much influenced by the game plan (and the oppositions game plan) as anything.

Fitness: I’m not sure how you quantify this, outside of injury count. (That’s not the same thing tho).

Game management: I’m not sure how you quantify this at all.

That’s leaving aside additional things like players playing for different provinces, against different opposition, with different game plans which would result in completely imperfect comparisons. And that a few rounds of games is a pretty small sample size. And bench cover. And so on.

Why don’t you give us the specific stats you’d like to see?

Serbian · 22-09-2021 3:55pm

I have a feeling when Zebo is 50 years old and long retired, some people will still be banging on about him not getting selected for Ireland camps.

I guess one question is, what does this 50 person training camp mean? If you're not in it, is that it for your international career? Clearly not. Zebo could end up on the next team sheet Farrell puts out, but all will depend on how he fares for Munster over the next month or two.

Looking at recent history, he was out of shape and in poor form with Racing. If it's stats you care about, well, last season doesn't look great for him — he featured in half of Racing's games, averaging two completed tackles and one missed tackle a game, one line break per game, a try every third game. His only impressive stat is 55 meters made per game, but that's often inflated from kick returns at 15.

The bottom line is that he has to prove himself again. He's down the pecking order right now, and rightfully so. If he shows up and plays well in the next few games, he'll be back in the mix.

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2021 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924343#Comment_117924343

Im sure every rugby players first goal is to establish themselves as a first choice player with their club…

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2021 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924312#Comment_117924312

Based on what?

Zebo hasnt been in contention or competition for selection for three seasons.

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2021 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924400#Comment_117924400

Sure Everything is subjective and open to interpretation, player A could have double digit trys scored by the Autumn and player B could none while being on a team that hasnt won a game yet.

The question is what (if anything other than the colour of their club jersey) do people base their opinions of selection on?

Ive seen commented that the irish jersey is Keenans and thats that, its not up for grabs. Comical.

Personally I would like to see a player error free for 3/4 games, someone flawless on both sides of the kicking game, making all their tackles and fitting into the defensive structure seamlessly, they are the basics that are primary considerations and outside of that their attacking game is the extra that can swing it either way.

mfceiling · 22-09-2021 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924674#Comment_117924674

A top quality player has retuned and is now deemed eligible to play for Ireland, yet he has been overlooked by the management for a training camp, i find that odd to be honest and wonder what, if anything he would have to do in order that he be in contention come the time squads are selected for the autumn international's.

So why did you post that?

aloooof · 22-09-2021 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924727#Comment_117924727

Well, the main thing is obviously form. And given Keenan’s form last season, he’s the deserved incumbent imo. That could all change but it’s hardly comical to suggest that.

I’d suggest there are other positions (like back row, especially with Stander departing) where the calls are an awful lot closer.

Again interested to hear the specific stats you’d like to see the FB hitting tho?

molloyjh · 22-09-2021 4:29pm

You know who I’d like to talk about in terms of Ireland selection. Will Addison. Yes, I know, I’m a Leinster man and shouldn’t be talking up a player from another province, but that guy is class. If he can get a run free of injury (big if) then I’d be looking at him as a real option for the 15 shirt. Or at worst the 23 shirt.

What will be interesting too is just how important the coaches will value tactical kicking from the back 3 as well as positioning and fielding given the 50:22 law. What’s Balacoune like in those areas?

salmocab · 22-09-2021 4:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924782#Comment_117924782

Actually be interesting to see how the 50:22 affects team selections, wingers with big boots and good fielders may get a selection boost, might also see more versatile back 3 players coming to the fore. Sometimes though in sport the changes in rules don’t bring about the expected changes in play.

Dubinusa · 22-09-2021 4:45pm

I'd gladly take a 4th or 5th place finish, if it meant playing time for Coombes; Balacoune, HB, Casy etc.

Going into a world cup with Murray and Sexton is not ideal. I would expect that Murray will not be the incumbent by then, but Sexton? Who knows.

Zebo must earn his place in Munster. He's got to prove himself. He's not an automatic selection.

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2021 7:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924766#Comment_117924766

I would like to think that every position is up for grabs. That there is no attitude among the selectors where they see anyone as an “incumbent” that selections at the autumn assure competition across the squad.

As far as form goes after a summer without rugby surely form is irrelevant and only begins this weekend

aloooof · 22-09-2021 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925501#Comment_117925501

You’re conflating what people (i.e. fans, which was your original question) use to determine selection and what selectors use.

Form is among the only things fans have to go on; selectors / coaches naturally obviously have far more to go on.

And of course there are incumbents. For example, if there was a game 2moro, I’d expect Furlong to be the starting tighthead. Of course things can change, but that’s literally all it means.

As for form, there isn’t a sports team in the world that picks every position solely on form. Experience and leadership also all come into consideration.

Also, still interested to hear the specific stats you’d like to see the FB hitting.

pickarooney · 22-09-2021 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924400#Comment_117924400

They have this new xP stat now that will revolutionise everything. Nothing will be up for debate any more

ShineyShiney · 23-09-2021 12:16am

Some good full backs around, seems reasonable to me that the incumbent is included in a first extended panel get together of the season and a guy with some points to prove at his club is allowed to get on with it.

I've very little doubt that zebo will get selected if he plays well enough. Wouldn't have thought his french form last year warranted inclusion ahead of Haley or Keenan without a few good games