What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Well jm, I'm not saying Muslims are going to change their views of us. Nor their religion and whatever acts it compels them to do. But to say that if any number of Muslims started breaking our laws that would trigger just a 'rapid response', is a big understatement. To go any further and then extrapolate that in 50 or 100 years they will have re-shaped Europe in their image, with everything that endeavour entails, I firmly believe that to be nothing more than a massive failure to understand who we are and how we got to be who we are now. 50 or 100 years is a long time. One thing is to preach of conquering the West back in Iran or wherever, another thing is to be in the frying pan for 50 or 100 years.

I agree that these days Christians and other groups ethnically associated with the West, do not kill, main, etc... on foot of religious beliefs. Arguably however, specially from the point of view of Muslims, we do very much so kill and maim for our secular beliefs (freedom, democracy, etc...) no need to point examples there. Is not like we are shy about it.

So, where does that leave us? See, what I think proponents of a reactionary (knee-jerk I would call it) approach to Islam in Europe fail to comprehend, is the lengths we, not them, go to maintain our freedoms. Which is of course perplexing, as it is on the news practically 24/7 and there is a whole movie and video-game industry around it. So, let me ask you again, how exactly are 50 or 100 million Muslims, constrained by the same laws as you and me, defended yes but also constrained by the same Constitutional guarantees (in some countries not even defended by these, to quote you), principles and laws for which we do burn half the world to defend (fact), just how are they going to take over us? Are they going to get us to convert to Islam by winning our hearts? because failing that, it is not happening. Never by force, that, is the ultimate no-no friend, as it is already evident.

It won't happen jm. But even if it gets closer to happening (and that's a massive if), it will only get so far. Then it will be like Nazism and Fascism got so far (some still around and very much disliked). Like communism in the East got so far. Like the Roman Empire, then morphed into the Catholic church got so far. It may have laid the foundation for modern Europe, but the church doesn't rule us. Like the Turks got so far trying to get into the EU. And then, if Islam proves is truly subversive, it will fail. Miserably, loudly and it will serve as yet another example of a subculture that proved subversive to our freedoms. We'll tell our future generations of how stubbornly determined Western society was to NOT be ruled by any God. And that's who we are, if you didn't know. Unless we choose it or create it ourselves, not God can rule us. You are forgetting that. We are rebellious. Dangerously so actually. We don't do submission. Islam is all about submitting. We do either consent or war. Yes, even fat and lazy as we are.

See unlike you, I haven't lived in Muslim countries. But I am pretty certain that while Islam maybe (or not) promoting this aggressive take over you talk about over in Iran and these traditionally Muslim countries, individual Muslims are just human, vulnerable, flawed and also not stupid, just like us. So yeah, the day 50 or 100 million Muslims decide to break the law and stage a coup in Europe, they will be 50 or 100 million Muslims in an ocean of trouble. Nothing more. Civil war comes to mind. Foreign intervention comes to mind. Round up and mass deportations come to mind (see WW2 for precedents on this). Revocation of nationalities if involved in activities subversive to the State comes to mind (already happens). All this, and a whole lot more, would not just happen, it would definitely happen should the scenario you fear ever take place.

Jm, Islam may defeat many things for its weight, but nothing, I repeat nothing, defeats Western ideals. It's like the moment the guillotines went up in France, Pandora's box was open. No one can close it. We are the biggest danger to other cultures, not the other way around. Which explains Islam lashing out. Because pal, like it or not, our values are mighty (even if we don't live by them! LOL). Fecking unstoppable if you like, especially when someone threatens our freedoms. No. Correction even when we just think that someone may threaten our freedoms. Did you miss the part where we just went into the Middle East and set them back 100 years? Have you seen what cities over there look like now? They don't even have sewage and running water anymore. And all this because a few of their radicals thought they could start something that would lead to this fabled Islamic resurgence.

You really seem to ascribe to them some almost super-human powers of infiltration, endurance and take-over. Jm these are just people! Yes, very different to us, but people. They fill a nappy too if they are in danger, they aren't all some 100% determined jihadist. They get tired. They give up. Hell, some even convert to Christianity. Furthermore, back in the real world, they won't be given the chance to carry out a coup any more than you or I are given the chance. The system protects itself, I thought that was evident. So, I'll never see poor immigrants as some existential threat to Western civilization, sorry. I know too much to be that simple.

Europe is on the verge of setting down common immigration policy. I expect this wave of immigration to subside. Many will be deported; many will go back themselves (can't be easy, admit it). And in the future, it will be a lot harder to get in. That is all within the realm of what's in the pipeline. So please, let's stop the collective scaremongering together, its demeaning ourselves and our own culture.

No not just muslims but Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

I would have an issue with the teachings of Islam not muslims, its a nuanced view I know but there you are.

Do you believe the social issues they are having in France would happen here ? If not, can you say why we would be different ?

Or like you they can just pick and choose parts of facts to justify their irrationally, fear-generated hatred of others and become complete bigots like mum and dad.

I'm sure that will work out just fine too.

Should Spain round up and deport all Irish citizens from Spain?

Should the Spanish give a damn why the Irish man committed a murder in their country? There is a law against murdering people in Spain, for any reason.

You see no difference between 1. the killing an innocent people because they don't believe in the islamic God and prophet and don't live their lives according to the rules that religion sets out and 2. a drunken fight over a woman in a pub ? Its no business of mine what Spain do.

What's the difference in law?

Yes.

And I've written on this thread extensively about how the potential outcomes of those societal issues (like the incredibly sad murder of the person in France) are already covered by our laws. Murder in the name of Allah or in the name of Heineken, is murder. Is why we have laws and follow them. Not our fear or instincts.

This warmongering and fearmongering against any and all Islamic peoples will only accelerate social issues in our country. Can't you see that? The 'othering' of innocent people. The exclusion and finger pointing are the best manure for polarisation to emerge here, just like in France.

I see that you always appeal to this in law argument as if it negates the larger societal issues that Europe is experiencing with the growth of islam. Viewing these incidents in isolation to avoid the larger issues multi-culturalism is bringing forth in countries in Western Europe.