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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭tibruit


    He is very much the main focus of attention in the real world. Here in Conspiracy Theory land we have a few individuals working hard to keep some focus on a dead Garda. The theory emanates from an article written for Village magazine a few years ago by Garda hater in chief Gemma O Doherty. Bailey himself last week on primetime TV was apparently pushing the same theory. Presumably he doesn`t think that there is a French connection to the murder anymore.

    Anyway, Gemma related that Martin O Sullivan was on his way to work when he was dangerously overtaken by a blue Ford at 7-30 on the morning of the murder. She claims that O Sullivan gave a statement to Gardaí about the incident. I would question whether this is actually true and if a statement actually ever existed. Gemma doesn`t seem to have seen it because she is vague on where exactly the incident occurred but it seems it was somewhere between Sophie`s boreen and Bantry. She says that O Sullivan "believes" the car was a Fiesta. These words suggest doubt to me which makes me wonder how certain the witness can be that the car was even a Ford. I would also question how certain he could be that a car overtaking him in the dark with lights on was blue.

    Gemma goes on to tell us about a local guard who was a handsome lothario with a taste for foreign women. She says he drove a blue Ford (again unspecific). No evidence, just Gemma`s word. She goes on to say that Sophie may have known this guard by complaining to him about local drug issues. So no evidence that the two were ever in contact with each other. Where is the evidence that Sophie ever even made a complaint about drugs at all? Leo Bolger was convicted in 2010, fourteen years after the murder. It is highly unlikely he was growing weed on his land in 1996. It would have been uncovered in the searches for evidence after the murder.

    Another point worth mentioning. Gemma tells us the guard is now dead. She claims that he was a very disturbed man on his death bed, but nothing more. No deathbed confession then? So no connection at all between Sophie and the dead guy, no death bed confession, I wonder how many blue Fords were driving around Cork in `96? And even then it probably has no association with the murder. She also suggests that the fact that there were no fingerprints on the two wine glasses is evidence of a garda cover up. Sophie didn`t wash the glasses lads. The Gardaí wiped them down because yer mans prints were all over them. Really.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    He stuck to his story until he died but his 80-90% certainty of having introduced Ian Bailey should never have been believed in the libel trial, regardless of what Leo hydoponics Bolger had to say. Why would IB have needed to lie about this if he'd only shook her hand? It wouldn't have meant he'd got to know her more but it is being used to imply a deeper relationship he was trying to keep secret.

    A simple line of enquiry would have been ; "apart from Leo and Shirley, did you introduce many other people to Sophie? We'd like to interview them and their experience might jog your memory of how Ian and Sophie reacted to each other."



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat



    Out of interest what have you listened to or watched out of

    1) Netflix

    2) Jim Sheridan

    3) West Cork Podcast



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Errr... It didn't originate with Gemma, don't give her the credit.

    You've literally got so many things wrong there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    What's your explanation for the missing pages from a Jobs Book in Bantry station?

    Malachy Boohig, state solicitor for west Cork, gave evidence in the High court about a meeting in Bantry with Detective Dwyer and Chief Supt. Camon;

    "He said the meeting "continued for a good hour with both gardai continuing that I would have to persuade the director(DPP)".

    Afterwards, two gardai followed him to the hallway: "Both stated in very strong terms that I would have to persuade the director to direct a prosecution," wrote Mr Boohig. He said one officer said he was "aware I had attended college and studied with John O'Donoghue, the then justice minister, and that I should use that connection to talk to the minister to see if something could be done. I made no reply. I did not contact the minister."

    Asked whether Chef Supt Camon, just after that meeting, told Mr Boohig he understood he and then Minister for Justice John O’Donoghue had gone to the same college and would Mr Boohig get the Minister to have a word with the DPP, Mr Dwyer said he never heard Supt Camon say that.

    He himself never asked Mr Boohig to get on to the Minister for Justice or anyone else and in 40 years as a Garda never asked a politician to do anything for himself or the Garda force, he said."


    Mr Boohig informed Eamonn Barnes the DPP at that time;

    "Mr Barnes was "quite clear" in his recollection. "Mr Boohig rang asking to see me about a matter which he did not wish to discuss over the telephone. He said that if I was available he would come to Dublin that afternoon from west Cork," Mr Barnes recalled in his email. Mr Boohig warned him how gardai asked him to use his connection with the minister to put pressure on Mr Barnes. "I was of course well aware of the anxiety of the gardai to charge Bailey and not just the gardai in west Cork, strong and persistent advocacy having being deployed by them on the office for some considerable time," Mr Barnes wrote."

    Detective Dwyer is saying that the DPP and a state solicitor are lying. Or else he is?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,348 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    For the sake of Bailey's credibility as someone looking to 'clear his name', he should have picked one theory years ago and stuck to it, regardless of how thin the evidence. Because as it is he's give giving the strong impression of someone who either (a) knows with absolute certainty the killer was none of these other guys or (b) has no more clue than the rest of us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭Deeec


    You are being ridiculous - Why would he have to pick 'one theory and stick to it as you put it'. If he didnt do it himself then he is just like the rest of us and can only speculate on who may have done it. Lets face it there is a long list of suspects and motives so why would he focus on only one theory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    Perhaps the presentation of a single, consistent, plausible counter-theory would have forced the argument against him to be either proven, if backed up by solid evidence, or dissolved if not. It may have raised the standard, so to speak.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Its gas how the very same posters who are calling the majority of posters on this thread conspiracy theorists are the very ones trying to condemn a man based largely on hear say evidence from a bunch of individuals locally no one could trust as far as they could throw them. Maybe take a look in the mirror.

    Only an absolute dope would say the gards dont have much to answer for in this case. So much destroyed, missing evidence, so many false statements.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,348 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I'm just looking at it from Bailey's PR perspective as someone looking to prove himself 'an innocent man'. He has the presumably justified reputation as someone who has researched this case as thoroughly as anyone else. Now if he had come out 20 years ago and said "I'm absolutely certain it was a French hitman" and stuck to that theory ever after, it would lend that theory a strong dose of credibility in the minds of those predisposed to believe in his innocence. As it is, Bailey's reputation as a leading authority on the case is actually counting against him. Because if he keeps jumping around from one theory to another, it gives the distinct impression that the existing body of evidence does not support a single strong counter-theory.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭dmc17


    I'm sure with the benefit of 20 years of hindsight he might take a different approach. Perhaps at the time he thought the gards might solve the case



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Not necessarily, the vast majority of murders involving married women come from their husbands one way or the other & her husband had ample motive to murder her as has been pointed out earlier in the thread. On top of this, she was having a least one affair that we know about. So it wasn't unreasonable for Bailey to think along these lines initially.

    Its only been in the passing of time & the more we've discovered about her death & the subsequent handling of the case that other more likely theories have emerged. How the case was handled, the losing and disposal of vital pieces of evidence, the corruption of the local gards, the lack of follow up with witnesses, the drug issues regarding her neighbor & his land.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,348 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    But he was still talking about the French hitman theory (without much conviction, no pun intended) as recently as June.

    Has he discovered dramatic new evidence pointing towards the deceased guard in the last few months?

    He just looks like someone desperately clutching at straws.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Who knows? Maybe, there has been much more of an intense focus on the murder since June because of the two documentaries that were aired throughout the world. Maybe new witnesses have come forward. Nobody knows whats going on behind the scenes. The gards certainly arent going to tell you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭Deeec


    IB knows no more than the rest of us ( thats if he didnt do it of course! ). All he can do is raise any theory thats plausible to help clear his name. I think most people would do the same in his position. The guard, hitman, drugs etc theories are all plausible however coming up with new evidence 25 years after the murder is unlikely - the theories do deserve consideration though. He is right in bringing the other theories to public attention - not everyone knows the ins and outs of the' dodgy investigation and dealings' relating to this case. Alot of people have changed there view on Bailey being guilty by familiarising themselves with the case over the summer. If anything the documentaries have highlighted this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The 'scene' of the crime was quite dramatic. Like a play or a drama. Blood on the door, keys in the door blood on the gate a concrete block used to destroy her skull. What if it was staged? Killed elsewhere and the body carried/dragged by person or persons unknown to where it was found?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,348 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Yeah, Googling some of the coverage of IB's theories about the murder, it seems he's not really coming forward with each new or reheated theory like it was the Third Secret of Fatima, and that's more the spin the media are putting on it. Certainly what he's actually saying in that Cork Beo article was a lot more tentative than the blaring headline. If he doesn't have a single strong counter-theory that he can get behind 100%, I guess it's fair enough for him to highlight the range of alternatives and whatever evidence there is to support them...



  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭drumm23




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Killed elsewhere and the body carried/dragged by person or persons unknown to where it was found?

    And the trail of blood is where?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That is what the garda did. Bailey seem to be following the evidence as he sees it



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Yah, he's such a fool to believe the gards might actually do their job. I guess its unreasonable for us to expect them to do their job properly and investigate the murder the way it should have been. **** sake



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I have no idea about the missing pages. It might be sinister, it could be innocent.

    Dwyer may be lying, perhaps his recall is poor. But that passage does illustrate how determined Gardaí were to charge Bailey. Did they seek to do this because they wanted to pin it on a saddo that they knew to be innocent so as to cover up for one of their own? Absolutely not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Ripping pages from an evidence book could be innocent!!! Ive heard it all now, what about the disposal of key pieces of evidence, the bribery/coercion of dodgy witnesses, the manipulation of the statements, the intimidation put on the DPP to prosecute the case. Get up the yard ffs.

    Dwyer strikes me as the kind of detective you would put on a case if you didnt want it solved. Thick bogger who wouldnt be able to see the wood from the trees in a month of sundays. Happy to go along with the narrative from his superiors that Bailey did it as long as his pension remains intact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    It can't be innocent, if it was innocent there would be no need to do it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭almostover


    IB is innocent until proven guilty. Its not for him to put forward viable cases against the murder in order to clear his name. Its up to the Gardai to have undertaken a thorough and competent investigation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    He hasn't said anything publicly as far as I'm aware so how is anyone supposed to know?



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Can you just give us one example of how these pages might go missing for an innocent reason.

    Gene Kerrigan, Independent.ie in 2018;

    "It was not an exemplary investigation. There appears to have been a fixation on getting Ian Bailey. We will say no more than that. What happened some time later was even more disturbing. This was after the case had become controversial and questions were raised about the hounding of Bailey.

    In Jobs Book No 2, on page nine, Bailey was mentioned as a suspect.

    Pages one to seven, just before this, are missing.

    The two pages following the mention of Bailey, pages 10 and 11, are also missing.

    Jobs Books are bound, the pages could not fall out.

    Gsoc sent the book to an experienced forensic scientist in Northern Ireland. He found that the pages had been cut from the book, probably using scissors.

    Nine pages deleted.

    Let us put this in context.

    There was no credible evidence against Ian Bailey."



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    I've read books, watched interviews & documentary's

    I think you have to take I.B out of the equation completely to identify some suspects that appear to have gone under the radar.

    I now understand I.B when he says he has a suspect in mind... I do too .

    Not being cryptic but incompetence in this case is still going on today with speculation and shoddy media and blinkered vision..

    Take a fresh look with I.B (the patsy) being ruled out early on ..

    List the suspects and why...



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Gsoc sent the book to an experienced forensic scientist in Northern Ireland. He found that the pages had been cut from the book, probably using scissors.

    I had to laugh at this bit. It kind of sums up everything that is messed up about our public services as a whole. If the pages were cut by scissors there's a straight cut line of remaining paper at the seam. a child could point to it and say 'those pages were probably cut out with scissors'. Yet GSOC sends the book to another jurisdiction to have experienced forensic scientists from the UK tell them this.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,422 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I think the public service in question here is better summed up by

    Destroy evidence of malpractice \ corruption \ wrongdoing \ looking after our own.

    Assign responsibility to someone nearing retirement.

    Investigation into wrongdoing happens so much later and the body responsible is toothless and deliberately hamstrung by design ... most of those involved hide behind loopholes or retirement.

    Investigating body has to use external experts because no one here can be relied upon to be independent - either of the influence of those under investigation or to be implicated themselves

    Bonus points that the assigned scapegoat is dead by the time the investigation occurs.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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