The Ivermectin discussion

So you to to prove a negative. Thats basically what you are asking. There is no evidence of Invecterim being effective at treating Covid. Remember the people who make the drug don't think there is. If they did they'd be getting it approved an sold. There is huge money to be made from Covid drugs so if Invecterim is as effective as claimed its strange that manufacturers are throwing it away more or less.

It's very closed minded of you to off the bat label it a scam and straight away go diving for something to discredit what was posted. Your wording just there says only that your mind is made up and nothing will change that, so fair enough.

People here are only pointing out that a state in India has seen covid cases drop to the floor, with a vaccination rate of around 30% first dose received. Nobody can say for sure what has caused this but when the regional government themselves are saying that the early use of Ivermectin helped with this reduction, it's definitely worth keeping your mind open. Or maybe the Uttar Pradesh government aren't savvy to the back and forth here on Boards.ie and need to stop being crazy science deniars.

Any more word from your Indian colleagues? You know, the ones you chat with every day who are in touch with the other 1.3 billion..

The "bleach scam/cult" was a fabrication. Nowhere outside of the left-wing Twitter bubble was this ever considered real.

Meanwhile, countless media publications, including reputable mainstream news sources, have entire articles debunking it. A quick Google search is quite illuminating.

Bleach is not a fabrication even if the scam goes by another name normally. It has been pushed a treatment for the illness of the day before. My reference to Bleach was not specifically using it for Covid treatment. More of catch all for Medical scams that involve substances in dangerous doses.

Here is a youtube video about Bleach being prescribed. Now obviously its before Covid. However I'd argue Bleach is worse than Invecterim as at least Invecterim has some use for human medication. Its a very good debunking of pseudo science and a place to learn the tactics usec by scammers pushing unlicensed medicine.

Pharmaceutical companies exist to make money. Normally when they mess up its because of this ie selling unsafe products. However with Invecterim they are not selling it for Covid treatment. Why would they throw away money?

I know using bleach is extreme but I use it as an example of the dangers of pseudo science for exactly that reason. I don't think anybody is pushing bleach on this thread. Thankfully drinking bleach is stupid and most people are clued in enough to recognise that. However Invecterim is more sophisticated. It is approved for use in humans. However not for Covid treatment. Many of the tactics used to persuade people to drink bleach are the same as less dangerous drugs. Its a very good tool for educating people on the pitfalls of listening to pseudo science.

If I say "they wouldn't" you say "Ah-hah! Gotcha! Ivermectin cannot possibly be effective!"

If I say "because they're currently developing a new drug that would be in patent and therefore much more profitable" you say "Ah-hah! Gotcha! You're just a conspiracy theorist!"

If I say "because Merck has a large amount of capital invested in Moderna, and an effective therapeutic could put the kibosh on that much more lucrative revenue stream" you go to the conspiracy theorist thing again.

You see how that's a no-win situation for me, when you are utterly and completely convinced, in the absence of any definitive proof, that Ivermectin does not and cannot work for Covid-19?

Merck didn't say Ivermectin was not effective. They did not run any studies on it. They said there was no meaningful evidence of it effectiveness in Covid-19 therapy or prevention. And that's what the issue is here, because there isn't any definitive answer one way or the other, yet.

What is becoming clearer by the day is that the mRNA therapies act more as a pre-loaded therapeutic than any type of traditional vaccine, so we are going to need to find additional therapeutics if we want to stop people dying, regardless of their vaccination status. And double-plus-pro-vax people are going to have to let go of "the vaccine is the full and complete answer and anything else is blasphemous snake oil".

Well the problem is your point about them developing a new drug instead at best shows a lack of understanding of the pharmaceutical industry and at worst its pure and utter conspiracy. Developing a new drug generally takes a long time, takings a huge investment to develop mass manufacturing, develop the supply chain. In short its an incredibly expensive and risky process. The vast majority of new drugs don't make it to market as they fail some where in development.

Repurposing a new drug is relatively cheap and risk free in comparison as you have the vast majority of the required supply chain already in place. So if a company is given the choice between guaranteed money(Repurposing an existing drug) and potentially no money(developing a new drug) and the potentially no money option involves a lot more time and money its obvious they'll go with the cheaper less risky option.

Of course there is the potential that Invecterim could be found to effective against Covid however you can literally say that about anything. You can't prove a negative. Until then its an unlicensed drug for treatment in Ireland and no one should be taking it. Thats why I call it snake oil a scam etc, what else you expect me call the promotion of a drug for a treatment its not approved for.

Developing a new drug generally takes a long time, takings a huge investment to develop mass manufacturing, develop the supply chain. In short its an incredibly expensive and risky process. The vast majority of new drugs don't make it to market as they fail some where in development.

Yeah. All good points. Completely negated, of course, by the $1.5bn grant they got from the US govt to develop said new drug. 🤷‍♀️

It still doesn't guarantee it will succeed. The new drug could fail testing. The 1.5 billion is meaningless if it fails testing. If you say the FDA would approve it regardless your back to conspiracy theories.

If Invecterim was effective at treating Covid, it wouldn't take much to get it to market. It's a known quantity in many respects however not when it comes to Covid. And again the supply chain infrastructure is largely already in place. Thats the time consuming bit.

If Invecterim was really effective Merck would take the money from Invecterim now and until the new drug is not only FDA approved but also is manufactured in sufficient quantities to be more profitable than Invecterim. Its the most profitable option. Take the 1.5 billion and pocket the Invecterim profits win win. But of course they don't because knowingly promoting an ineffective drug would end them up in court.

Why do you keep spelling it "Invecterim"?

Anyway, what you have here is your own assumptions and suspicions. Same as me. And since Ivermectin is still in trial for Covid, we're not going to know for a bit, either way. I don't see how being hostile to a specific drug that may or may not work benefits anyone. You're not going to convince the doctors who are advocating it on the back of the existing evidence and their own experience, and you're certainly not going to convince the very small number of people who are ingesting horse paste. So you're left preaching to people whose view is "wait and see", which makes you come off as a bit too hard-line, considering that, once again, the jury is still out.

Nobody is pushing or recommending anything. People are discussing Ivermectin and emerging stories/data about it.

Anyway, too much reporting and stuff in this thread now. I'm out. Enjoy.