Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

karlitob · 22-09-2021 7:31pm #1

hi teachers

Question: what advice could you kindly offer me as to the best way to approach my child’s teacher about religion in the classroom.

background: it’s a religious primary school, normal enough stuff. She’s in senior infants now. Our family is atheist. Last year we didn’t bring this up for obvious reasons. But we don’t want her praying, being taught anything religious, or anything like that. Neither do we want her singled out and ostracised in the class.

would really appreciate your help on the best way to approach things. Her teacher is great and she’s really enjoying school.

Jim_Hodge · 22-09-2021 7:34pm

It's far from an uncommon situation. Just arrange to meet the teacher and explain your concerns. You won't be the first case in most schools.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 7:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925991#Comment_117925991

While I agree in general, I kinda wonder at this school.

i will arrange - I’m just looking for pointers and any insights from those who’ve been through it - from both ends, parents and teachers.

22-09-2021 7:40pm

Mine don't do religion along with probably 25% of the class.

They just colour or read. Doesn't mean their not listening but it's doing them no harm

karlitob · 22-09-2021 7:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926033#Comment_117926033

Thanks for that. Disagree with the harm bit though.

22-09-2021 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926057#Comment_117926057

If you can't be open to understand what other people believe then you should homeschool

pooch90 · 22-09-2021 7:52pm

Teacher and also parent to a JI opting out of RE. (also disagree with the no harm thing)

It's honestly not an issue opting them out at all. We have all dealt with kids opting out. I'd explain what you'd rather the child do during this time so they aren't just sitting there bored for 30 mins. Maybe even say you'd provide little books like join the dots (good for fine motor skills) or extra handwriting/phonics/maths. Have a plan before you chat.

Actually, have you spoken to your child about it? I'm wondering how to broach it with my little fella. We just kinda threw him into school without so much as telling him what god means!

karlitob · 22-09-2021 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926068#Comment_117926068

The purpose of this thread is not to an ecumenical or philosophical one. Nor is it one to attack me unfairly. You said it does no harm, I disagreed. You then decided to say that I’m not open to understanding what other people believe and then how I should educate my child. I’ll educate my child in anyway I see fit - the exact same as you. I don’t believe in a religion who’s major tenet is vicarious redemption through gruesome human sacrifice, nor do I wish for the urgent end of the universe and Armageddon so that I may be judged by the son of a god, who is also a god. It seems you don’t either.

I think it’s harmful to teach my child that s/he was born with sin purely by being born. And only pouring water on your head by a lad with a dog collar can mean you’re lucky enough to go to some place that’s made up.

Regardless, are you telling me that religion in senior infants is a study of world religions in the spirit of open mindedness - or faith formation in the ‘ethos’ of the school.

Thanks for your input

karlitob · 22-09-2021 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926091#Comment_117926091

Thanks for that. Good points I’ll take on board. Thank you.

Yeah I’m struggling with that also. She has mentioned god. And she’s started putting her hands together. I find it incredibly upsetting to see such a small little person being inculcated into a cult at such an early age. I know the background to education and religion in ireland - I’m not naive to it. I think religion is a personal thing that should be kept at home. She saw all the communion dresses today and of course, all talk about it.

but I tell her there is no god (obviously). I tell her it’s make believe. And it’s just no different to fairies or unicorns.

pooch90 · 22-09-2021 8:20pm

Yeah, I want to teach him about being respectful but that it's just not what we believe but others do, and that's fine. It's just not for me and daddy. He loves science so we might work that angle....

It also puts me in a **** position being a teacher in another school, teaching something I don't believe.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 8:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926253#Comment_117926253

I just don’t know how you do it. I really don’t. It must be so hard - on the inside, you know.

Is it still illegal for schools to discriminate against hiring gay teachers?

orecir · 22-09-2021 8:26pm

Surely you should let your child decide themselves. If they want to participate then let them and if not then ask the school for them to do something else during RE.

A very narrow minded and intolerant view here by many.

22-09-2021 8:27pm

[quote] Thanks for your input [/quote]

You don't really mean that 😁

starlady1 · 22-09-2021 8:40pm

If you don't want your child taught anything religious you need to be aware your child is in (I assume) a catholic school and most of the other children will be doing religion. You need to decide if you are opting your child out of religion what they will do during religion time.

You can pick another subject e.g. maybe English or SESE, or at that age fine motor skills, handwriting etc. Your child must be able to do this work independently while the other children do religion.

You need to ask the teacher for a meeting to discuss the above but first decide exactly what you want for your child during religion time if they are to opt out.

Interestingly I have seen children of other nationalities and other faiths participate in all religion classes etc but they just don't take part in sacrements. They still completed the religion book and did work in copies. This may be an option for you but of course you can also opt out completely if you wish.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 8:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926294#Comment_117926294

Haha. Should I let my four year - who hasn’t yet learn to read or write - decide whether or not she wishes to be inculcated into the Catholic religion. The one that happens to be the majority of religious beliefs in the country of her birth. Or - in the spirit of ‘letter her decide’ - perhaps I should ask her whether she wants to believe in Islam and teach her that a Middle Ages Arab warrior who married a 6 year old girl and flew into heaven on a fiery winged chariot. And that’s before the other religions.

Are you really serious that you expect a four year to ‘decide for themselves’ what religion they wish to believe OR NONE and what they - according to the religious people - what they will do with their souls for eternity.

don’t be silly. Sure when did you ‘decide’. When my child gets to an age that she does understand and wants to believe in fairies and unicorns then I’ll happily support her.

As with most unthinking religious people, their problem is that the start the engagement with believing that there is a god, and the atheist are wrong. They forget that we both have the same evidence for the existence of a god, but you choose to believe despite the lack of it, and I don’t.

and when I highlight their belief system - like I did above - and they don’t like it….they call me ‘narrow minded’ and ‘intolerant’. So yes I am intolerant of any religion that professes creation as fact rather than mythology; that human sacrifice as a means of redemption, that anyone can be risen from the dead, that any child any human is born a sinner, that human bodies can assume into another dimension of existence, that virgins can bear children, that bushes burning in the desert can speak, the the value system is written on a tablet by a god and only given to one lad (and one of those values is against thougth crime), that the end of the world will be the second coming of gods son, who is also a god, and that death snd destruction will come onto the unworthy - yeah, I’m intolerant of that and much more. I wear your attempt at shutting down an engagement by trying to label me with phrases such an intolerant with pride.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926396#Comment_117926396

Thank you for this. Good points that I wills prepare for.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 8:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926306#Comment_117926306

No - I did for you taking the time on your first post.

Not for your personal attack on me on the second post.

listermint · 22-09-2021 8:54pm

OP you are incredibly confrontational and tbh really aggressive sounding in this thread. I too am non religious and so are my kids. They weren't brought up in Catholic tradition like I and my wife were. We married outside of any church.

But your attitude stinks . I fully accept should my child go to a religious school that they may here things and engage with classmates on aspects of faith and I hope they fully respect and under other people's beliefs.

What ever you do when speaking to the teacher please leave the attitude at the door no one needs to hear that stuff in their job. The teacher is just doing their job. Keep it civil and very short and don't go down your rabbit hole explanations.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926505#Comment_117926505

I don’t care about your opinion on how I respond to other people who call me close minded or intolerant; and that I should home school my child because i respectfully disagreed with religious instruction being harmful.

I don’t care that you think my responses are aggressive - that’s your view, not one that I share, and one that’s not true,

If you read a little more carefully - rather than trying to be some form of arbiter of my posts - you will see that I responded robustly to those who took to personal responses and name calling; and you’ll see mine all detail the many beliefs of those posters who - instead of doubling down on their beliefs ….the same ones they expect my child to listen to….attack me.

And if you read even more carefully - you’ll see that I how respectfully I spoke with an actual teacher on this thread.

So - with the same sincerity as I gave to the other poster - thanks for your input.

22-09-2021 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926478#Comment_117926478

Sorry you think it was a personal attack. It was nothing of the sort, just my opinion as having my kids in an RC school and not being RC. If you don't want them being exposed to the ethos of the school then you really need to reconsider the type of schooling you want for your child.

What do you want to happen, the child stand outside the door when the class say their prayers at the start of the day?

If you don't want the ethos of a school effecting your child, then homeschooling is your only choice.

Princess Calla · 22-09-2021 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926437#Comment_117926437

I clicked into this thread as we are not bringing up our children in a religious faith so I was curious to read the replies.

Jesus Christ though if you are so against religion why the hell did you send them to a religious school.

Mine are in a religious school they could have gone to an educated together school but I'm abit ambivalent about the situation, they won't be taking the sacraments but I don't really care if they are exposed and have same knowledge about religion as their peers.

This is not the case for you so I don't understand why you would send them to a school that is completely against your belief system.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 9:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926605#Comment_117926605

Apology accepted.

I pay my taxes like everyone else. My child is entitled to the same education like everyone else.

It is also illegal and unconstitutional for my child not to be supported to opt out of religious education. So I disagree - and find offensive - how you come to the conclusion that I should take my child out of school and home school them instead.

ForestFire · 22-09-2021 9:11pm

To be honest, I don't know what to say I'm so appalled with what reading from the OP here.

Did you seriously tell your 7 year old daughter that unicorns do not exist!

(age guess based on class)

Talk about a kill joy....... :-)

on a more serious note...

I do agree with what some others have said. Asking to be left out of direct engagement is fine, expecting to be shielded from what else happens around them is not feasible or practical, to expect the catholic school you enrolled in, to be able to accommodate.

Treppen · 22-09-2021 9:11pm

Word of warning op. A colleague was adamant in pushing the "there is no god" line on their daughter, and micromanaging every thought she had after the days religion class through the 13 years in education.

As true as eggs are eggs the daughter got sick of it and rebelled, she's now a fervent promoter of the faith in her own life, local community and primary school teaching career.

Jeremy Sproket · 22-09-2021 9:16pm

Religion is a deeply personal affair. It should be removed from schools and not taught there. If parents feel so strongly about the sacraments, then they should arrange with each other to have Communion and Confirmation preparatory courses outside of school.

I say this as someone who believes in God (my dad is Lutheran and my mam is CoI). We attended Lutheran services in Sweden and CoI services here. We're not strict about our "flavour" of Christianity.

22-09-2021 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926632#Comment_117926632

Seems you just want to be offended and choose to ignore that an ethos of any school will effect your child. Even if it's educate together, they will still teach about all religions.

You seem to detest religion to such an extent that I can't understand why you would expose your child to a school who has a religious ethos.

You are quiet within your rights to homeschool.

So what do you actually want the school to do to accommodate your hatred of their ethos?

listermint · 22-09-2021 9:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926601#Comment_117926601

If you don't care. Then why open a bloody thread asking for advice on what way to handle it.

Off the wall friend.

With the level of vitriol you have I'd suggest homeschooling was probably the better options but for the sake of the kids probably an educate together. But... Shock horror they learn about different faiths there too !

Mad I know we have to share this earth with people of different opinions and faiths to ourselves. Respect goes all ways, even if I have a distaste for the church and it's teachings.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 9:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926616#Comment_117926616

I made the point already. There are NO other schools in the area. All schools are oversubscribed. 92% of all primary schools are Catholic.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 9:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926637#Comment_117926637

Haha. No - not unicorns. Just god.

Yeah - I know. Only Israel spends more time on faith formation in Ireland. I just can’t believe that so much effort goes into forcing children to believe in a god and religion that the whole country criticises.

If only they could just teach children the curricula and leave religion to the parents and churches.

22-09-2021 9:26pm

Any chance of sending your child to a non religious school OP?

billyhead · 22-09-2021 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926437#Comment_117926437

We get your point about being an atheist and anti religion but you don't need to glorify it. If your that keen and desperate for your child to not be involved in religious studies there's no point coming on here looking for advice and opinions. Discuss it with the teacher or school principal or if that doesn't succeed as suggested move your child to an alternative school.

22-09-2021 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926723#Comment_117926723

You have statistics to back that up I assume.

I've received several emails from my a school advising kids in my sons class have to be registered with the local church for communion. I do what the other 5 parents in my sons class do. Ignore it.

BTW, I agree, religion should be taught outside school but as its obviously not the case you've two choices. Suck it up or seek an alternative way to educated your child.

Don't expect a school to change its ethos for you

karlitob · 22-09-2021 9:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926702#Comment_117926702

Again - friend - it seems like you haven’t read my posts. I asked for a view on how to engage a teacher - in a teaching forum.

You didn’t provide any advice - but called me names and judged my posts.

What is shocking is that you think children in a religious school learn about other religions rather than faith formation. The white dresses are testament (pun intended) to that.

I do know what point you’re trying to make about ‘respect’. Another slander on your part. I’ll be clear for you. I don’t respect people’s religion or beliefs - how could I respect anyone who is part of a religion that buries stillborn children in unmarked graves cos they didn’t get some water on their head. I respect that they are free to practise their religion - as is their constitutional right (article 44). But that doesn’t mean that their right infringes upon mine or my child’s. And for me and my taxes pay for the pleasure of it - in an ostensibly pluralistic republic at that

Banal comments like ‘we all have to share this world’ - well there’s not much response to that. I’d rather people in this world didn’t commit genital mutilation on newborn children for religious reasons but I won’t stop circumcisions being conducted. But yeah - you’re right, I have to share the world with these people - friend.

Hamachi · 22-09-2021 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926705#Comment_117926705

My situation is very different to yours. I have two children, whom I’m very happy to attend catholic schools and to absorb the ethos.

Whilst I have sympathy, you’ve captured the reality in this post. You can either shake your fists at the clouds or adopt the more realistic position of accepting that your child will be exposed to a degree of religiosity in a school with a catholic ethos.

You simply have no alternative unless you can identify a truly non-religious school in your locality. You can justifiably rail against this, but it’s not going to change the status quo, which is unfortunate for you.

Hamachi · 22-09-2021 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926723#Comment_117926723

Sorry, but the ‘whole country’ does not have disdain for religion and belief in God. You’re projecting your mindset on to millions of strangers.

Amongst the parents I know, some are quite religious, many are ambivalent, but are content for their children to receive a catholic education. I also know a few who are agnostic, whose children will not be receiving the sacraments.

However, I don’t know anybody as vocal or hardline in their system of (non) beliefs as you appear to be OP.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926772#Comment_117926772

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/b35a14e5-en.pdf?expires=1632348212&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=A55DC0AFFF387556FED2F551E8088B7A#page344

That reference came from the Irish Time but recent data from this years oecd report states that we’re now the highest.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-not-outlining-plans-for-those-opting-out-of-religion-survey-finds-1.4410079

Ive clearly ‘sucked it up’. I sent my child to a religious school - the only one we could send her to. And I’m on a forum asking how best to engage with the teacher on how to do this best.

But instead of helping me with the issue - I’m being attacked for my views after being initially insulted for not believing in a god I don’t believe in.

I don’t expect the school to change its ethos for me. I expect the state to ensure that ALL its citizens rights are respected - which includes not being forced to attend religious instruction.

Which constitutional right do you enjoy right not that you’re happy for a religious institution can take away from you. We either abide by our constitution and laws or we don’t.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 10:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926819#Comment_117926819

Thank you.

I make the point towards this in above post. There is a responsibility - legal and otherwise - for the schools to be supportive and engaging for those who do not believe precisely because the ‘ethos’ of the primary school system obviously does not correlate with the people who use it. They cannot just say - this is our ethos, and that’s it (except they do do that)

While not directing this to you, and I’m conflating many issues with this point - but it often seems contradictory to me that we (the royal we) can have such a valid criticism of the institute of the church (not the belief system), how there can be marches on the street for pro-life and gay marriage, for there to be marches on the street for a maternity hospital not to go to svuh (a Catholic hospital …. Even though Holles st is) and then send children to a school which is run by the same religion. “I don’t entrust you to deliver my child but once they’re 4 you can have them for 15 years and teach ‘em a catechism that goes against what I voted for’.

o1s1n · 22-09-2021 10:06pm

I actually feel your frustration OP - Unfortunately you'll get zero love in this forum and a lot of replies telling you to suck it up as you're basically between a rock and a hard place with no options.

Discuss it with the teacher and do your best to nullify any religious garbage your child might bring home with reasoning and critical thinking. It won't matter what your child hears in school if they think it's a load of nonsense.

Princess Calla · 22-09-2021 10:08pm

You are not the first parent in this situation. The school has been here before.

Arrange to meet/phone teacher. Say you don't want your child taking part in religion classes. The school will most likely have a protocol to what happens here and the teacher will explain that to you.

My primary school the child sat outside the room the teacher kept the door open to keep an eye on them. Us kids whispered and gossiped about why that child was out of the room.

Secondary school was a convent school so girls were just sent to the library to twiddle their thumbs the rest of us just got on with it.

RealJohn · 22-09-2021 10:15pm

OP, maybe you should read your own posts. You’re the only one guilty of the things you’re accusing others of here.

Your attitude is not of someone looking for advice, but that of a teenager who’s just discovered atheism and has created this thread to start a row with the stupid, deluded, religious nut jobs. If that’s what it really is, maybe you should think about growing up. If it was a genuine attempt to get advice, it’s not coming across that way anymore, so if you’re really looking for help, maybe you should ask yourself if your current attitude is the best way to get it.

(Hint: it’s not.)

Deeec · 22-09-2021 10:16pm

OP the only way you are going to ensure your child is not exposed to any religion is to change schools.

You could ask the teacher to let you know the times when religion is thought in the class and you could collect your child and take her out until religion is over. If she sits in the class colouring or whatever she could still be listening to what's being said. She will still be listening to prayers during the school day though so you would have to accept that that's part of Catholic schools day.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926858#Comment_117926858

Well obviously I omit the fundamentalists in the sweeping comment about the ‘whole country’. I don’t pay much heed to people who didn’t criticise the church for their role in child abuse in this country and abroad. Happy to send you on some reading about the topic.

Maybe you haven’t asked many people about what part of your religion they don’t believe.

It’s not exactly ‘hardline’ that I think the earth will end when the sun explodes rather than when the son of your god comes down from a celestial plane that no one can prove exists and bring death and destruction to whoever is living and all those ever buried

it’s not ‘hardline’ that I think that a human can’t ride into this celestial plan on the back of a fiery winged chariot.

It’s not ‘hardline’ to think that a virgin can give birth to a child.

it’s not ‘hardline’ to think that the first two people in the world were not called Adam and Eve

it’s not ‘hardline’ to think that I don’t accept that human mother of your god appeared to schoolgirls in the back end of Portugal (Fatima)

Whats actually happening is that you’ve never had someone ridicule your beliefs. And, as many religious people do, start with the ‘belief’ (if you’ll pardon the pun) that you are right (there is a god); and that since you’re right that some form of deference should be given to your ‘beliefs’ which strangely always seem to be a function of where you’re born and what your parents ‘believe’ - so much so that a law had to be created to protect this omniscient and omnipotent being (blasphemy).

But I’m hardline.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 10:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926921#Comment_117926921

Thanks for that. I mean it - the last line of your post makes a lot of sense.

I do love an ol’ debate on religion. Sure what other topic is as great to discuss.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926927#Comment_117926927

Thanks for that.

Sitting outside the room. How sad that a child has to be punished by not teaching them maths, English and Irish so that the school can use that time to inculcate children. It really is sad.

A read of that oecd report suggests we don’t spend nearly enough time teaching the basics as other countries.

Hamachi · 22-09-2021 10:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926953#Comment_117926953

OP, I respectfully disagree with much of your commentary above.

I wish you well in identifying an appropriate educational setting for your child.

listermint · 22-09-2021 10:23pm

I'm actually pretty confident at this point your were never actually looking for advice . Thanks for clearing that up in the last few posts.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 10:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926949#Comment_117926949

Ah - always enjoy someone who answers their own rhetorical questions.

It’s funny how when your mirror back another persons beliefs - one they force your child to be part of it - they always attack the person who holds the mirror rather than explaining why the believe that someone can rise from the dead? I don’t profess my belief of faith every Sunday morning - nor does anyone here either.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926951#Comment_117926951

Thanks for that.

Good suggestion on getting class times for religion.

o1s1n · 22-09-2021 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926962#Comment_117926962

I was a child who was omitted from religion in the early 90s (my parents are Jehovah's Witnesses so it was for other reasons than yours) so I am well aware of how awkward a situation it can be for kids. When I got a bit older though I started seeing not having to do religion ad a bit of a novelty and a great way to get homework done in school.

I still stayed in the room but my parents would explain to me when I got home that the stuff I was overhearing in school was incorrect and their funky cult was 'the truth'.

Long story short, the whole thing did wonders in waking my kid brain up to the reality of the situation around world religions. I'm sure you can use it to your advantage.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 10:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926988#Comment_117926988

Thank you.

I already have an appropriate educational setting. The issue is one of religion and forced faith formation about the religious school monopoly

Not sure which bit of the description of your religion you disagree with. But don’t worry - people typically disengage when they see it all written down. It’s hard to square the circle so it’s best not think about it.

karlitob · 22-09-2021 10:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926989#Comment_117926989

No - I was.

Again, I really feel like you haven’t read these posts very well. Anyone that offered advice was thanked. Anyone who made personal attacks or - like you - tried to sit in judgment of me - I responded to in kind.

Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

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