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US and UK to now furnish Australia with nuclear submarines.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    40 years?

    I give it less than that.

    Perfidious Albion indeed!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Wow China have DF21D ,

    That's seriously amazing like the DF21D is what exactly archer22 ????



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Apparently France declared war over the remarks earlier this afternoon.

    Boris is heading home as we speak to negotiate their surrender



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I imagine if they cut off gas or electricity to protect the EU and themselves in this crisis, you wouldn't be so flippant about France's response.

    It isn't outside the realms of possibility that that's his plan. Rally anti-France and anti-EU sentiment in the likes of you to cover for the UK's failures. It isn't our lack of storage and Brexit, it's France cutting off supplies because of a few little words.

    When a country's politics revolves around an external force, that force has to be kept relevant at all times.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Imagine if France did declare war, or aliens landed, or Spurs won the league.

    anyway, back to reality……..



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,640 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The reality is that Johnson has decided to piss off the French at the same time as the US is trying to conciliate them, which of course means he will piss off the US as well.

    Still, Johnson was never one to miss an opportunity to sacrifice his country's interests for the sake of a favourable tabloid headline.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, the reality is the French have thrown a massive hissy fit and need to get a grip.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun



    Building domestically is so attractive to politicians because of the jobs angle but once they sign on they’re up against a contractor with all sorts of local lobbying power. Canada made this mistake with warships and is watching the bill escalate progressively:

    https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/slow-to-deliver-federal-auditor-general-calls-shipbuilding-delays-concerning-1.5325064



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,640 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    And how, exactly, does Johnson's behaviour contribute towards the achievement of this end?

    He should look at how the grownups are trying to handle this situation, and learn from them. Or, at the very least, he should shut up and let the grownups handle this. But, as I say, there's a cheap tabloid headline to be had here, and we know Johnson too well to hope that he can look beyond that.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Grown ups don’t recall ambassadors from allies.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,640 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Keep deflecting, Aegir. The issue is Johnson's behaviour; you repeatedly try to turn the discussion to Macron's behaviour. I think I know why.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    Nothing wrong whatsoever with Johnson's behaviour, other than in your "Boris is the reincarnation of the devil" imagination. Macron needs (if you'll forgive the less than PC phrase) to man the **** up and stop throwing his toys out of the pram.

    If Macron thinks that is worth withdrawing the ambassadors from Washington and Canberra because the Australians decided to cancel a contract that had become not only troublesome thanks to the underperformance of the supplier, but also somewhat obsolete, as the needs of the customer were changing, then telling him to get a grip seems to be a fairly diplomatic comment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,640 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You'd think that, before Johnson reacts to the withdrawal of ambassadors from Washington and Canberra, it might cross his mind to look at how Washington and Canberra are reacting, and to wonder "if I do my usual back-end-of-a-pantomime-horse routine on this, could that possibly annoy Washington and Canberra, who are evidently trying to mend fences with Paris?"

    Well, actually, knowing Johnson as we do, we could confidently predict that it wouldn't cross his mind to ask himself this question. But acknowledging that we all know that Johnson is a complete arsewit isn't much of a defence of Johnson.

    Perhaps Johnson was pissed at the evaluation of the UK's status and influence implicit in France's decision not to recall its ambassador from London, as well as Washington and Canberra, and he hoped by acting the clown to provoke France into doing so? Nah, that would be overthinking it. He did this because it gets tabloid headlines that gratifies the base. It would never cross his mind to wonder how it might play in Parish, Washington or Canberra.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Macron threw a hissy fit, the likes of which we haven't seen since Ursula Von De Leyen invoked article 16. This meant Biden's team and Macron's team had to come up with a carefully worded statement (including smiley photo of Biden on the phone) so that France could back themselves out of the corner and the US could still show who actually is the boss.

    Froma UK perspective, the French tried to demean their involvement by only cancelling a meeting with the defence secretary, so they didn't need to climb down. in return, Macron got the political equivalent of a wet willy from Boris.

    that's pretty much it. no one is making an issue of this, other than the usual suspects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭brickster69


    But let's line Putin's pockets and build a pipeline with him. Cut off gas and electric to one of the founders of NATO which has been protecting Europe for the last 70 years, and people wonder why EU countries were left out of AUKUS.

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,640 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The general view seems to be that Macron will be quite pleased with the US statement; he's got the US to support French efforts in the Sahel, which is something he wanted and hasn't been able to get up to now. Obviously the US have done this because they want to make a gesture to France in light of the way it was treated in the construction of the AUSUK deal, which the US is not best pleased about, and for which they are mainly blaming Australia.

    The UK is a bit of a sideshow in all this; France regards them as only secondarily responsible for the AUSUK shitshow, and the US does not regard them as primarily responsible for France's hurt feelings.

    Frankly, that would be quite a good outcome for the UK; they get the benefit of the AUSUK deal and avoid most of the blame going around. Given that the question of how to respond to the French recall of ambassadors from Washington and Canberra is, fundamentally, not the UK's business, the best thing for the UK would be to keep its head down, not get in the way of Franco-US rapprochement, and not do anything that might upset this beneficial outcome.

    But, no. Given the choice between (a) behaving wisely and in his country's interest, and (b) drawing attention to himself and pissing off his allies, Johnson will go with the attention-seeking, every time.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Indeed, Macron should be grateful to the US for throwing him a bone, after his tantrum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Come on now, get a grip as Boris said (!) When did the French cut off Great Britain's leccy and gas? Or suggest such a thing? The UK is also the last country that can point fingers about Russian influence IMO.

    You enjoy Boris Johnson's antics, and the show is put on for you. You are part of the UK Conservative Brexiter core vote going by your posts.

    You were all excited about Boris's pig French efforts + posting up memes and jokes about the French being embarrassed and humiliated etc. A dark part of me would love to see what would happen if UK were faced with a cluster of far right populist govt.'s (Boris/Trump-alikes) across the channel in France/Germany/Italy instead of normal centrist and boring politicians but...I'd want to be at safe distance in time or space!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,640 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Well, these days he's certainly better at getting things out of the US than the UK is.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    UK gets part of a tripartate agreement that not only supports British jobs and innovation, it also helps increase their influence in the region.

    France gets a little rub on the head and put back in their box.

    I know a little rub on the head and a bounce on the knee from the US president is seen as the be all and end all of international relations in some countries, but personally I would prefer the former.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    The UK is a bit of a sideshow in all this; France regards them as only secondarily responsible for the AUSUK shitshow, and the US does not regard them as primarily responsible for France's hurt feelings.

    I don't think UK is a "side show" or not responsible for or important in what happened here. Would just throw it out there that maybe the French are expecting that sort of behaviour now (??).

    I suppose you'd call it an(other) extremely competitive/'frenemy' action - not quite hostile but edging close from the UK govt. It's disappointing I'm sure, but should be no great shock and continues a possibly inevitable downward trend of UK-French relations post Brexit.

    It will probably spill over into the UK-French military cooperation eventually. I'd imagine stuff like that will be the very last to get burned up on the altar of "Brexit" as all it works through the system and the new reality comes into focus and most painful to have to reduce (for both sides).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    stuff like what? Australia deciding they want nuclear powered submarines?

    wtf has that got to do with Brexit?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I'm not getting your point. What have I said that was badly wrong? I actually agreed with you.

    UK was a key part of this (you said that, disagreeing with another poster). 

    It benefits directly in several ways, some of it at French expense (again you pointed that one out as well - see below quote)

    "UK gets part of a tripartate agreement that not only supports British jobs and innovation, it also helps increase their influence in the region.France gets a little rub on the head and put back in their box."

    You can't have it both ways, where UK was at once a key part of all this strategy & secret manouvering and then also intended no real harm to France. Not quite hostile but definitely very, very competitive & some sharp practice involved.

    As to connections back to "Brexit", I'm not sure how that can be denied? The UK published a raft of documents about how it's intending to reposition itself in the world post Brexit and we've the UK government statements about it also ("Global Britain" using one of the slogans) and "AUKUS" idea fits in very well with that. I may be wrong, but would all be much harder if UK were still an EU member I think.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I would imagine a lot....

    The UK invariably have ties to Aus. This relationship could act as a conduit to funnel through US technology and influence through the UK without any direct hassle from the EU... This could be under a further guise of trade deals etc... (which the UK has been gunning for since Brexit, so has plausible deniability) and the US essentially don't have direct involvement, meaning no one can escalate anything over this move...

    As I mentioned already, there has been some very interesting defence company acquisitions in Aus by UK/US companies over the past few months, which all of this would explain.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    why would the US need to "Funnel" US technology through the UK, when they can just sell them the technology direct, if they wish.

    Australia are buying a load of F35s and are already a member of the five eyes consortium. You don't get much more high tech/secret squirrel than that.

    And what does any of this have to do with being in or out of the EU?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    why would it be harder if the UK was still a member of the EU?

    If France can sell submarines to Australia and the UK can sign agreements such as Five Eyes, why would they need to be outside of the EU to do what they are doing now?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'd just be repeating myself answering half of that... Aviation technology and operations is not as secret anymore as sub-marine

    Having a truckload of gas guzzling F-35's which you can watch their whereabouts using satellite, track using OTH (or their tankers for long range ops using conventional radar) compared to a sub (possibly 8) which can sit off your coast for months with the potential of a nuclear capability (or even conventional strike at certain targets) is a completely different ballgame



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,103 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The issue is Morrison cancelling the contract. Boris being Boris shouldn't be surprising to Macron or anyone else. He's a shoot first, and apologise later kind of person, but he's also a nappy changing adult. I personally suspect there is at least a 50 IQ point gap between Morrison and Boris - in the latters favour, of course. If Macron doesn't have a grasp of Johnson's character and style by now, he shouldn't be in the job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,562 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    I think you've identified the direction of travel pretty well here and I think it will ultimately end with a NATO split, with European nations forming their own defence pact outside of NATO, and the Anglosphere forming their own alliance. Ireland, I would assume will sit it out, despite pressure from both sides, particularly Europe, to pick one.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Breaking from NATO would make no sense ,it would take years to start all over again and built a European army ,

    Essentially we would need a standing European army Strong enough to deal with the threat from putin let alone any other threats ,



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